Questions about how Jews are viewed...

[VoxClamantis]

Well, I am not disappointed by the depth and thought that have gone into the responses to my questions, and your replies have been very helpful - especially in that they vary, so that I am getting input from different people with differing views in certain respects.

I wish that I could convey to you the feelings I have. I have a nasty habit of investigating things for myself. I have found out some things about Zionism and its history that have shocked me. I have learned things about the behavior of my biological kinsmen that have disturbed me. I have been very disturbed by the hypocrisy and hate that I have seen coming from who I had been raised to see as the "good guys."

I don't know how many people there are like me, and I think that we tend to keep our mouths shut. But I have a big mouth.

I would love for people to keep responding to this thread because I plan to revisit it frequently as there is much for me to digest here.

I wish that there were some way that I could apologize for my terribly misguided tribe - apologize for the slanders against Christ and Christians, apologize for the efforts to mainstream the most bizarre facets of American culture, apologize for the efforts to remove religion from American culture, apologize for the double standards and hypocrisy, apologize for 98% of what comes out of the mainstream media. I am tormented by the actions of many Jews. I cringe when I read the news because of how often I see Jewish names behind crazy stories. I hate this. And sometimes maybe I am a "self-hating Jew." We have gone so wrong.

I've been thinking about this post ever since I read it, and it's just killing me. It's so sad...  I wish I could give you a big hug (sorry, I'm thataway).

First, like Quis said, you have no need to apologize for things you didn't do. To go further, you have no need to apologize for both loving and being disappointed in your kinsmen. In fact, that's what all Catholics are put in the place of doing: loving the Jewish people while recognizing error and defending Christ, His Church, and Christendom. The way things are today, the Catholic has a hard job in doing that: defending Christ, etc., automatically makes one an "anti-semite" or a "self-hating Jew" by its very nature. You're in the same position as the rest of your fellow Catholics, but you have the added pain of loving Jews in a more intimate, familial way than most other Catholics while also being pained by the actions of many Jews.

You say you have a big mouth, and I'm glad, because that's what I think is needed at this time: for Hebrew Catholics who aren't Protestantized in their theology (like the Association of Hebrew Catholics, for ex.) or AIPAC'ed in their politics to speak out and defend Christ and teach their extended family the Truth. If you have the talent for writing and the time to do it, I urge you to make a blog, (anonymously if it'd protect you) and do just that. You just might get a lot of support from fellow Hebrews who know what you know but who "keep their mouths shut," as you say, for fear of losing the love of friends and family and being labelled "self-hating" and such. There are other Hebrews like you out there. You are not alone! I don't want you to feel alone...

Your feelings aside, though, Christ and His Church need defending, and you, by nature of your ethnicity and because of the way things are, can do more of the sort of defending that's needed right now than other Catholics can. And because of your experiences, you would probably be likely to write with a sensitivity that wouldn't alienate the typically educated American. I guess I'm wanting to stoke your fighting spirit and get you to go on the offense, to be proud of who you are, to fight for Christ publicly and possibly get support for yourself through such writings. If you make such a blog, I definitely want the URL!

Whatever you do, keep your eyes on Him (He's got His on you!) and remember that some of our greatest Saints are Hebrew Saints, that Our Lord Himself is Hebrew, that the Queen of Heaven is from the tribe of Judah. Hang on to all the great things about your ethnic heritage (there are so many!)...

[Belloc]

Actually, it would be no different having a seder than having a Christmas tree, holly, or mistletoe in your house. The greenery was originally part of pagan religious ceremonies, but missionaries to the celtic lands wisely christianized them.
St Gregory the Great famously advised St Augustine of Canterbury to use whatever local religious customs were already there, and turn them to use for Catholicism.

A seder is NOT a Christmas tree, but a religious event, prefiguring Christ and the last supper/Mass...there is a difference!!!

I agree with last sentence, but the jews are different, in that they of the original covenant were given things, unlike pagans, for a prefigurement......you cannot celebrate a seder, it would be an empty ritual.......you have the Mass, that is the new and everlasting........Pagan worship could retain elements into today's custom, provided they do not contradict Christ, which would be seder, contradicting the Mass......etc....

[StrictCatholicGirl]

A seder is NOT a Christmas tree, but a religious event, prefiguring Christ and the last supper/Mass...there is a difference!!!

I agree with last sentence, but the jews are different, in that they of the original covenant were given things, unlike pagans, for a prefigurement......you cannot celebrate a seder, it would be an empty ritual.......you have the Mass, that is the new and everlasting........Pagan worship could retain elements into today's custom, provided they do not contradict Christ, which would be seder, contradicting the Mass......etc....

Again, you can't fairly compare Jewish practices to the pagan practices of the Gentiles.. I'm not referring to the cultural trimmings and trappings (which can be Christianized), but the out-and-out sacrifice to false idols vs. the one, true God. This isn't even apples to oranges.

 

Perhaps you are right about not celebrating the Seder. Christ, after all, is the Passover Lamb. But I'm a little more forgiving of Chanukah and Purim, which, traditionally speaking, are minor Jewish holidays and have no Sabbath restrictions. These were historical events that did not necessarily prefigure Christ (although the allegory has been made re: Queen Esther and the Blessed Virgin). All I'm saying is, if you can wear your kilts and blow your bagpipes, why can't a Jewish convert spin a dreidel and sing a Yiddish song? Does that contradict Christ? No more than lighting a Christmas tree and singing about the wassail bowl, in my opinion.

 

- Lisa

[QuisUtDeus]

Well, if a dredel and a Yiddish song can be Christianized or at least stripped of non-Catholic symbology, then I would agree, but I think it would be difficult to accomplish that.

I think you can fairly compare Jewish practices to pagan practices when it comes to the seder meal, etc.  They are rituals of false religions, and Catholics should not engage in rituals of false religions.  In the case of the seder, there is a Catholic version of that, and it is the Mass.  So, it seems no further Christianization is possible.

As far as bagpipes and kilts go, they have been stripped of non-Catholic symbology.  You can't compare those to religious ritual.  A better comparison to bagpipes and kilts would be klezmer music. 

Another thing that is cultural is food.  Like matzo ball soup and gefilte fish. That's fine for a Catholic to enjoy, and in the case of matzo ball soup, tasty, too!  Oh man, and pickled herring, and lox, and...  I love Jewish food.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Well, if a dredel and a Yiddish song can be Christianized or at least stripped of non-Catholic symbology, then I would agree, but I think it would be difficult to accomplish that.

I think you can fairly compare Jewish practices to pagan practices when it comes to the seder meal, etc.  They are rituals of false religions, and Catholics should not engage in rituals of false religions.  In the case of the seder, there is a Catholic version of that, and it is the Mass.  So, it seems no further Christianization is possible.

As far as bagpipes and kilts go, they have been stripped of non-Catholic symbology.  You can't compare those to religious ritual.  A better comparison to bagpipes and kilts would be klezmer music. 

I agree with the last few statements, but I don't agree that we can fairly compare Jewish practices to pagan practices. I don't think I'm being clear. I was speaking of ancient Jewish practices. The practices commanded by God in the book of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy.. I'm not saying that those laws are still binding, of course. They are no more binding to the Jewish convert than they are to the Gentile convert, but we do have to separate the religion of the ancient Israelites from the religions of ancient pagans.
 
St. Gregory the Great said: His chosen ones did not desist from laboring in the cultivation of the vineyard in so far as they ceased not to be zealous in worshiping God with the TRUE FAITH.

 

The Jews of old had the TRUE FAITH, the pagans did not. If you are saying that Judaism today is a false religious system, I won't disagree with that. But to say that the menorah cannot be lit or the dreidel can't be spun or Yiddish songs can't be sung, is stripping the Jewish convert of much of his cultural identity (not to mention his interacting with family members who may still be Jewish). We don't demand that from the Irish or the Italians or the Chinese.. We don't demand that from anyone but the Jews. I think a lot of our fear stems from the Jewish person's attachment to Israel and his strong connection with a past that predates Christ.

 

- Lisa

[Belloc]

Well, if a dredel and a Yiddish song can be Christianized or at least stripped of non-Catholic symbology, then I would agree, but I think it would be difficult to accomplish that.

I think you can fairly compare Jewish practices to pagan practices when it comes to the seder meal, etc.  They are rituals of false religions, and Catholics should not engage in rituals of false religions.  In the case of the seder, there is a Catholic version of that, and it is the Mass.  So, it seems no further Christianization is possible.

As far as bagpipes and kilts go, they have been stripped of non-Catholic symbology.  You can't compare those to religious ritual.  A better comparison to bagpipes and kilts would be klezmer music. 

I agree with the last few statements, but I don't agree that we can fairly compare Jewish practices to pagan practices. I don't think I'm being clear. I was speaking of ancient Jewish practices. The practices commanded by God in the book of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy.. I'm not saying that those laws are still binding, of course. They are no more binding to the Jewish convert than they are to the Gentile convert, but we do have to separate the religion of the ancient Israelites from the religions of ancient pagans.
 
St. Gregory the Great said: His chosen ones did not desist from laboring in the cultivation of the vineyard in so far as they ceased not to be zealous in worshiping God with the TRUE FAITH.

 

The Jews of old had the TRUE FAITH, the pagans did not. If you are saying that Judaism today is a false religious system, I won't disagree with that. But to say that the menorah cannot be lit or the dreidel can't be spun or Yiddish songs can't be sung, is stripping the Jewish convert of much of his cultural identity (not to mention his interacting with family members who may still be Jewish). We don't demand that from the Irish or the Italians or the Chinese.. We don't demand that from anyone but the Jews. I think a lot of our fear stems from the Jewish person's attachment to Israel and his strong connection with a past that predates Christ.

 

- Lisa

Light a monorah if it makes you (using plural sense) better or ethnic, sing or song or tow, fine.......but it can get very grey when it comes to jewish practices now outdated since Christ, etc....again, whatever has survived with Italians or Irish pre-Christian, has to be weighed on its own, but they were not in opposition to Christ as were his onw nation..nor demanding that OT practices outmoded by NT/Christ be prqacticed...nor said European groups demanding a separate Rite, etc.replete with prayer shawls (seen them advertised in Evangelical catalogue) or seders,etc.......no problems with ethnic traditions, as long as they do not negate Christ.....in any culture.....

[Belloc]

Lisa ,et al, good discussion and hopefully from my end,charitable...see you all soon.....

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Lisa ,et al, good discussion and hopefully from my end,charitable...see you all soon.....

Ditto, Belloc.. All is well.

- Lisa

[DarkKnight]

I vote for "From a safe, considerable distance."

[Martin_Pen]

Thanks again to you all for your comments and the manner in which they are being expressed. I am not averse to hard truths.

My personal approach to being a Catholic is to not be special. I'm not really in synch with what I've read from some Hebrew Catholics: things like arguing for the right to wear yarmulke and prayer shawl during Mass, etc. I feel that my "job" as a Catholic is to simply be a Catholic - to increase in humility. I don't want to fall into the trap of believing that I am special simply by accident of birth - or at least no more special than any other struggling Catholic.

Likewise, I do not seek to alter Catholicism at all - I seek to be altered by it.

I bring my kids to Mass but their mother also celebrates Chanukah and Passover with them. My understanding of both of these holidays is that they do not directly oppose Christ: Passover being about celebrating the liberation of the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, and Chanukah being a celebration of God's grace in granting the Jews a victory over the Greeks.


Vox: thank you for another very thoughtful post. I have often considered setting up a blog to, even if nothing else, seek to rebut the terrible slanders against Pope Pius XII.

[LaRoza]

Likewise, I do not seek to alter Catholicism at all - I seek to be altered by it.

I bring my kids to Mass but their mother also celebrates Chanukah and Passover with them. My understanding of both of these holidays is that they do not directly oppose Christ: Passover being about celebrating the liberation of the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, and Chanukah being a celebration of God's grace in granting the Jews a victory over the Greeks.

I see nothing wrong with celebrating those events if they do not overshadow Christmas and Easter.

[LaRoza]

Vox: thank you for another very thoughtful post. I have often considered setting up a blog to, even if nothing else, seek to rebut the terrible slanders against Pope Pius XII.

I recommend http://www.blogspot.com/ or http://wordpress.com/

[Satori]

Not that this has any bearing on the central part of this discussion, but I can't stand seeing so many people referring to the Christmas tree as pagan! The Christmas tree is more than likely of Christian origin, a descendant of the "paradise tree" used in a popular medieval mystery play.

Carry on.

[didishroom]

I see nothing wrong with celebrating those events if they do not overshadow Christmas and Easter

The Church has forbidden any celebrations of the Old Law. Yes tell them of these stories their importance but no Catholic should ever celebrate these holidays.

The Mass is the true sedar.

Chanukah is a pre figurment to Christmas.

[didishroom]

Not that this has any bearing on the central part of this discussion, but I can't stand seeing so many people referring to the Christmas tree as pagan! The Christmas tree is more than likely of Christian origin, a descendant of the "paradise tree" used in a popular medieval mystery play.

Carry on.

Wow, I finally found someone who agrees with me on that.