Questions about how Jews are viewed...

[philipmarus]

 I read about this (Paradise tree) in the book "Why Do Catholics Eat Fish on Fridays" sold by Angelus Press only few weeks ago.

[Martin_Pen]

The Church has forbidden any celebrations of the Old Law. Yes tell them of these stories their importance but no Catholic should ever celebrate these holidays.

I ask for my own education - can you please provide sources for this as it pertains to Chanukah and Passover?
If what you say is true, I will stop participating in my family's celebration of these holidays. I have no wish to disobey the Church.

[didishroom]

I will try and look(I know it's in there) and get back to you.

But for now: why do you think the Church has NEVER celebrated these holidays?

[StrictCatholicGirl]

I will try and look(I know it's in there) and get back to you.

But for now: why do you think the Church has NEVER celebrated these holidays?

I'm sure the apostles celebrated the Jewish feasts and festivals. They continued to go to synagogue on Saturdays, while gathering for the Eucharist on Sunday. 

- Lisa

[ONeill]

I will try and look(I know it's in there) and get back to you.

But for now: why do you think the Church has NEVER celebrated these holidays?

I'm sure the apostles celebrated the Jewish feasts and festivals. They continued to go to synagogue on Saturdays, while gathering for the Eucharist on Sunday. 

- Lisa

I'm sure the Jewish apostles did. Those not born Jews would be unlikely to do so.

[Belloc]

I will try and look(I know it's in there) and get back to you.

But for now: why do you think the Church has NEVER celebrated these holidays?

I'm sure the apostles celebrated the Jewish feasts and festivals. They continued to go to synagogue on Saturdays, while gathering for the Eucharist on Sunday. 

- Lisa

That was prior to split w/Synagogue in 40's and 70's AD. In other words, that was then, but now we do not do Jewish religious rituals (seders,etc)...we do not still go to Synagogue and then, our homes for the Canon of Mass and Eucharist, do we?

Why not?......

[VoxClamantis]

About celebrating Jewish feasts, Quis and I were talking about Hannukah and he made a good point. We both agree (though, of course, wer're a coupla nobodies with no authority) that family traditions and memories that keep families tight and feeling close are great, good things -- extremely important. We both agree that no such tradition should be contrary to the Faith, and that any tradition with religious roots and that isn't overtly anti-Catholic in any way should be Catholicized.

.. which brings us to Hannukah. My first instinct was to say "why not?" - but then I looked more closely at the holiday and found out that the origins are almost entirely Talmudic, which makes it iffy for me, and that one of the traditional Hannukah songs -- the Ma'oz Tzur -- has as its lyrics:

O mighty stronghold of my salvation, to praise You is a delight.
Restore my House of Prayer and there we will bring a thanksgiving offering.
When You will have prepared the slaughter for the blaspheming foe,
Then I shall complete with a song of hymn the dedication of the Altar.

My soul had been sated with troubles, my strength has been consumed with grief.
They had embittered my life with hardship, with the calf-like kingdom's bondage.
But with His great power He brought forth the treasured ones,
Pharaoh's army and all his offspring Went down like a stone into the deep.

To the holy abode of His word He brought me. But there, too, I had no rest
And an oppressor came and exiled me. For I had served aliens,
And had drunk benumbing wine. Scarcely had I departed
At Babylon's end Zerubabel came. At the end of seventy years I was saved.

To sever the towering cypress sought the Agagite, son of Hammedatha [Haman],
But it became [a snare and] a stumbling block to him and his arrogance was stilled.
The head of the Benjaminite You lifted and the enemy, his name You obliterated
His numerous progeny - his possessions -on the gallows You hanged.
 
Greeks gathered against me then in Hasmonean days.
They breached the walls of my towers and they defiled all the oils;
And from the one remnant of the flasks a miracle was wrought for the roses.
Men of insight - eight days established for song and jubilation

Bare Your holy arm and hasten the End for salvation -
Avenge the vengeance of Your servants' blood from the wicked nation.
For the triumph is too long delayed for us, and there is no end to days of evil,
Repel the Red One in the nethermost shadow and establish for us the seven shepherds.

One of the blessings recited goes like this: 

"Blessed are You, LORD, our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to kindle the Hanukkah lights."

And now for the point that Quis brought up: Hannukah comes right at the time of Advent, a penitential season. Eight days of eating yummy latkes and exchanging gifts and playing with dreidels and such don't quite fit.

I wish the Association of Hebrew Catholics weren't so dispy in eschatology and AIPAC'ed in politics because it seems that Hebrew Catholics really could use help in learning how to preserve their cultural identity while becoming 100% Catholic -- something that must be harder for them than for most because "being Jewish", as said before, can mean so many different things. I feel really sad about Hebrews who convert and feel sort of torn between living as a Catholic and carrying on family traditions, reliving things their grandparents did and that they remember growing up with. One would think there'd be a good way for a Hebrew to do at least some of these things (obviously Passover's out, though traditional Passover foods can be eaten for Easter, and Hebrew Catholics could speak of how Passover is the type for the Good Friday-Resurrection anti-type -- something I encourage ALL Catholics to talk about at their Easter tables).  

Maybe if Hannukah were stripped of that blessing and hymn (or if both were reworded), if the story of the oil were recounted as an "ancestral legend," and if the Feast were moved up begin on or culiminate on the Feast of the Maccabees (August 1) so that there were be no conflict with Advent? And, of course, such a family or ethnic tradition shouldn't be "forced" on the entire Church or seen as superior to other ethnic Catholic traditions, but should be seen in the same sort of manner as St. Joseph's Day altars are seen by Italians, or the Christmastide candles in the windows are seen by the Irish.

Just thinking out loud...

[voxpopulisuxx]

Quis

No, it is inherent, IMO, to the Talmudic version of Judaism.  It has nothing to do with ethnicity or what have you.  It stems from what the religion teaches.  To a Catholic, Jew and Gentile make no difference as far as blood lineage goes.  We are equal before Christ at the moment of creation.  It is the practice of religion that makes the difference, and Talmudic Judaism preaches a way of behavior that allows what Catholics would consider being traitorous, duplicitous, greedy, etc. because it differentiates between Jew and Gentile.   It teaches that Jews are to act different among Jews than Gentiles, and it teaches that Jews are in some way better than non-Jews.

zackly...and I would add those who espouse a political opinion called zionism, and the hollywood type who is a racist, but non religious

[voxpopulisuxx]

and in the spiritaul sense the Christian is to the Jews what an Oak tree is to an acorn....

[Martin_Pen]

I feel sometimes as though my heritage has been stolen from me. The faith of the ancient Hebrews has been turned into something that they would scarcely recognize. Do they really believe that God would forbid us to tear toilet paper on the Sabbath, for goodness sake?
Yet, it would be less hard for me to swallow if the fruits of religious Judaism were more righteous, if the practices actually produced a more holy, more loving, spiritually healthy people who seemed to be closer to God. But I don't see that - I see an absurd regimen of endless rituals which still leaves Jews believing that their souls are superior to those of Gentiles, and that one's fellow Jews should be treated better than Gentiles should.
And I feel that my ethnic/secular heritage has been stolen from me by generations of slavish, almost unswerving devotion to liberal politics of many stripes: socialism, communism, secular humanism. These generations have bred such hatred of religion (how my family hated the religious Jews!) and such a degree of what seems an unreasoning need to tear down anything which Christianity has built.
I can't stand with my fellow Jews as co-religionists, nor even as secularists or non-religious people working toward admirable goals.
My people's religious and secular history are riddled with what appear to be misrepresentations and even fabrications, and this continues through the modern day even in the history of the founding of the nation of Israel. I used to be a Zionist, but to paraphrase a great thinker, "to be deep in history is to cease being a Zionist."

There is an emptiness in me because of this. I have Catholicism and I have taken this history and this culture as my own, as Ruth did with the Hebrew people. Yet the place that many of you have, which contains good feelings about being Italian, or about being Polish, or Russian, or Japanese, or whatever else, is missing in me. All these things which once made me feel at home, which once comforted me as being my place in the world, amongst my people, are one by one falling under close scrutiny.
I'll stop whining about this after this post, but I wanted to express what I and, I can only imagine, many other Jews feel. Nothing prepares average Jew for what he will find if he actually questions things. Perhaps this is one reason that secular, atheist Jews are so angry about religion itself. We been had. We've been lied to, and we've been taught to lie to others. It's devastating and I hate it.

[VoxClamantis]

I don't know why your posts kill me so hard, Martin. I guess it's because I have such a "thing" for being Italian, and imagining losing that feels like a punch in the gut.

-- but there's losing that, and there's losing that, if you know what I mean. Your ethnic ancestors are still the Israelites of old, just as they're your and your fellow Catholics' spiritual ancestors. And there are still the great things about Jewish ethnic culture -- all the things I mentioned before (and Irving Berlin, for ex., et. al., anyone? Hollywood? Yeah, it's become a bit of a cesspool lately, but think of all the great old movies of the past, and some of the great ones still being made today). Your Grandma's kitchen is still your Grandma's kitchen, your childhood memories are still real and (I'm assuming) beautiful. It's just that now the meaning of "your people" has expanded, just as it has for all new Catholics. I mean, I'm Italian-Irish -- but "my people" are from Africa and Asia and India -- everywhere people love Christ and receive Him. As a Catholic, I believe in subsidiarity, so politically I fight for local control and against centralization and new world orders and such, and that principle applies to all places. But "my people" includes Germans, Arabs, Hebrews, mutt-Americans who have no idea who their ancestors were. And you.

And no one's family is perfect. My Irish-side Grandpa (R.I.P.) used to hit his wife for a time, and was racist against Blacks (though I think his real issues were affirmative action, busing, subsidized housing that broke up old neighborhoods and such, his talk was venomous). But he was good to me, I like to believe he repented, I pray for his soul every day at dinner, and I love him anyway. His mother (she was non-Catholic; Grandpa converted) threw an ax at her husband's head -- embedding it in a tree inches away. My Italian-side Grandpa (R.I.P.) once stabbed a man for insulting his nephew (oh, those dagoes! The man lived, praise God). My Italian Grandma's side of the family got chased out of Pennsylvania by the Mafia (I don't know the story there except that a cop tipped them off). I pray for all of them and love the crazy lot of them in spite of their flaws.

Your heritage hasn't been stolen from you. It is what it is. You just understand it differently than you did before, and there is still much to love there. Your ancestors are still your ancestors, with all their flaws -- and with all their gifts, too. You just see them now as having missed out on the biggest Truth ever, like the ancestors of other Catholics whose families weren't baptized. I'm guessing what makes things so much more intense for you is the nature of present-day Catholic-Jewish relations, the power of Zionism, the nature of the control over the channels of our culture. We're all in that same boat to some degree, though. We're all put in the position of fear, for ex. But you're able to do a lot of good for the Church and your fellow Catholics because of your ethnicity (it's sad that this is so, but it is) if you talk about these things. 

I'll stop whining about this after this post, but I wanted to express what I and, I can only imagine, many other Jews feel. Nothing prepares average Jew for what he will find if he actually questions things. Perhaps this is one reason that secular, atheist Jews are so angry about religion itself. We been had. We've been lied to, and we've been taught to lie to others. It's devastating and I hate it.

I hope you don't stop "whining" (ha, feed a stereotype, why doncha?) (sorry, it was there, and I'm hoping yer laffing).

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that maybe you should talk to the Association of Hebrew Catholics. Where they're wrong or "iffy", maybe you can set them straight. At the least, you can likely find other Catholics of Jewish ancestry who feel what you do. Maybe you could write for them in addition to starting up a blog (which, IMO, you shouldn't limit to only a defense of Pope Pius XII, but should talk about your experiences along with defending the Church's history in general and talking about Zionism, etc.). Or, if you ever care to write about your experiences and what you've learned for the FE website, I'd love to "publish" it here. I think the things you are going through are so very important -- especially if what most of the Church Fathers believed is true: that in the last days, many Jews will convert. Not only do your fellow Catholics need you (reading about what you're going through would hopefully make other Catholics more sensitive and aware), but your fellow Hebrews need you, too. They need to know Christ, and could use help in learning how to adjust as Catholics, how to go through what you're going through now. I guess my (unsolicited) advice to you is what I'd say to anyone going through a sad time (something I need to remind myself of often as a depressive): after a bit of mourning and re-adjusting, focus outward.

Your story's killing me for some reason... Our family's going to add you to our prayers tonight.

[didishroom]

Now while this makes no mention of Chanukah and Passover, I think the same principle should be applied here.


Pope Eugene IV:


(The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior) firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation

[Telemaque]

I noticed this the other day in the Council of Florence:

All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

That last line is interesting:

"it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation"

Someone could easily interpret that too strictly and fall into error, I think.  

http://catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

At any rate, I wish Catholics were discouraged from circumcizing their children in this country.  It is a judaizing practice masquerading as medicine.

[didishroom]

How so? Give an example.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Those documents mention Mosaic Law and all its rituals (which the grace of Jesus Christ fulfilled), the Sabbath Day of Rest and its innumerable restrictions (which Sunday replaced as a Day of Rest, but threw out the restrictions), and circumcision as a sign of salvation in the Old Covenant (which Baptism in the New Covenant replaced).
 
Those documents are warning those who circumcise and cling to Mosaic law for salvific purposes. Celebrating Chanukah or Purim does not do that..nor does it point to Christology. Someone said Christmas fulfilled Chanukah. How? The only connection between the two is LIGHT. But ALL winter festivals -- including the pagan ones -- were/are a celebration of light.
 
- Lisa