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Author Topic: Scotism  (Read 1236 times)
Arun
Toxophilic Theophile

Gender: Male
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676


IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS


« on: August 14, 2009, 11:05:PM »

Some questions - I really like what I've read by John Dun Scotus, but many people (especially Thomists) heavily criticise his philosophical works, and tell me to avoid them. Personally I find Scotus to be clearer and easier to understand. I have nothing against Thomism (I trust Archbishop LeFebvre's judgment, and he was an avid Thomist). But I haven't noticed any differences on anything dogmatic between the two (apart from Scotus supporting Immaculate Conception).
But what do I know? So are there any other Scotists out there? What do people think of his works?
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die.

Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius

BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı

*Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre*
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 05:08:AM »

No I'm not a Scotist and I don't pretend to know much about him.
But what could be easier to understand than St. Tom? He presents all the contrary arguments that he knows about and dissects them and replies to them;very logically.
However, perhaps in this modern world where fad and fancy reign, logic doesn't seem to have any place.
If it pleases you, let's argue about particulars.
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Arun
Toxophilic Theophile

Gender: Male
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676


IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS


« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 04:00:PM »

argument doesn't please anybody, ultimately! lol.
thanks for the post though, i agree that logic has been decimated in the face of humanist and modernist philosophies.
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die.

Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius

BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı

*Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre*
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 06:40:PM »

argument doesn't please anybody, ultimately! lol.

Good point.
However, the kind of "argument"  I refer to is the rational presentation of facts and ideas: not the sophistry and gainsaying that is passed off as argument these days.
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Arun
Toxophilic Theophile

Gender: Male
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676


IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS


« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 08:03:PM »

ah, i see. very well. Smiley
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die.

Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius

BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı

*Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre*
Benno

Personality type: All 4 supposedly
Posts: 785



« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 01:51:AM »

Actually, much as I hate him, he had some good points that wre swept away in the whole neo-thomist burst of enthusiasm. (I've had a few drinks)  Smiley
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Arun
Toxophilic Theophile

Gender: Male
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676


IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS


« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 02:59:AM »

De Primo Principio is fantastic, but I haven't been able to find any other complete texts. Anybody know a good place to look?
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die.

Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius

BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı

*Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre*
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 05:01:AM »

I don't know of any complete texts. but the Catholic Encyclopedia has a pretty good overview of Scotism for anyone who may be interested. The article can be found at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13610b.htm

It's nice to see something serious appear from time to time in these pages.
Thanks Arun.
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Baskerville

Posts: 4,402



« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 05:26:PM »

I havent been able to find much that he wrote but what he did write I liked.
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Venerable Pius XII pray for us.
StrictCatholicGirl

Posts: 6,731



« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 09:37:PM »

I do like Scotus. One of his theories is that Adam even in the state of innocence could sin venially. I agree.. I think Scotus also believed that the Incarnation would have happened even if our first parents had not sinned. Or maybe that's just a popular theory in the Franciscan tradition.

- Lisa
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- Lisa

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales

Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2009, 10:56:PM »

I that the Incarnation would have happened even if our first parents had not sinned.
- Lisa

That's a bit hard for me to take in.
Could anyone elaborate please?
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StrictCatholicGirl

Posts: 6,731



« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2009, 11:22:PM »

I that the Incarnation would have happened even if our first parents had not sinned.
- Lisa

That's a bit hard for me to take in.
Could anyone elaborate please?

Franciscan (Scotistic) Thesis: Absolute Primacy Of Christ

Theory of Incarnation:
-Jesus Christ was absolutely predestined for grace and glory in His Incarnation quite apart from any question of sin. The elect (men and angels) were chosen and predestined in Him by an eternal decree. And this before the universe had been created.

Supporters of this:
-St. Maximus the Confessor: Christ was always destined to come
-St. Francis De Sales: The primary reason for the Incarnation is that God might communicate Himself outside Himself. Communication of God ad extra. From all eternity, God saw that the most excellent way to do this was to unite Himself to some created nature. The Incarnation is the ultimate self-communication of God to man. Therefore God willed it for His sake, to pour Himself out into creation.
-St. Albert the Great: In his Sentences, he says that Christ would have come, despite sin.

Scotus:
The absolute primacy of Christ begins with God’s plan. So we can say that it begins from above, and not from below (from man). It begins with God.

-He seeks to see the created world form God’s point of view. And God, he would hold, does not subordinate His eternal decrees to man’s temporal situation. God rather in His goodness, freely wills to create the universe according to a fixed plan.

The key note to Soctus’ system is the word "predestination"
Note the distinction again from a Calvinist predestination:
God has a fixed plan for creation, but man is still free.
For Scotus, the origin of all creation rests on predestination.
Scotus defines Predestination as "An act of divine will which destines (chooses or elects) an intellectual creature to grace and glory."

Predestination is characterized by 2 activities:
1) eternal: the eternal act outside of time. This refers to the intention of God for all eternity.
This specifically refers to the activity of "determining the end." Meaning determining the goal or purpose or final cause of all of God’s activity outside of Himself.
2) Temporal: " The Execution of His foreseen plan in time."
This means the gradual realization of His eternal plan in time.

-Therefore, we have a single plan of predestination with 2 activities that bring it about.
Intention and execution.
The intention which God freely chooses from eternity always precedes the execution of His intention in time.

The predestination is the positive act of the divine will which destines a rational creature to grace and glory. This refers first to Jesus Christ in his humanity, and also to all the saints and angels. Scotus will say therefore, it follows that there is a primacy of the will, that is, a primacy of charity in God. (Keynote of Franciscan thesis, from Bonaventure: Love is primary to God). Scotus doesn’t downplay the importance of the intellect, but does highlight the importance of love.

For Scotus predestination is absolute, not relative, meaning that it is not relative to any created need or circumstance. Rather it is based on God’s own intrinsic goodness and moving creatures to himself for the optimum grace and glory.

Christ was willed (Incarnation) before the foundation of the world. Jesus is first of all willed for His own sake and not first for man’s sake. In fact, men and angels are created for Him and He for God. Jesus could not be predestined to grace and glory on account of sin....even though he will conquer sin in his mercy. Thus the Incarnation is the supreme work of God ad extra (outside of Himself) and it is not occasioned by sin. This predestination of Christ, of men, and of angels is one simultaneous act. So God destines all of the elect to grace and glory in Jesus Christ.

To Sum up:
In Scotus’s Ordinatio he says:
1) God predestines Christ (in His humanity), saints and angels to glory before any foreseen sin.
2) Predestination is absolute in the intention of God and not based on future needs or sins of creatures.
3) Thirdly that Christ’s absolute predestination could not be "occasioned by sin" or even for the sake of men and angels.
a) After willing the Trinity, the first thing that God wills is the humanity of Jesus.
b) You don’t predestine the height of created glory based on the fall of an inferior creature.

It must be noted that St. Thomas Aquinas did not hold the same position.
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- Lisa

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales

Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2009, 11:49:PM »

To Sum up:
In Scotus’s Ordinatio he says:
1) God predestines Christ (in His humanity), saints and angels to glory before any foreseen sin.
2) Predestination is absolute in the intention of God and not based on future needs or sins of creatures.
3) Thirdly that Christ’s absolute predestination could not be "occasioned by sin" or even for the sake of men and angels.
a) After willing the Trinity, the first thing that God wills is the humanity of Jesus.
b) You don’t predestine the height of created glory based on the fall of an inferior creature.

It must be noted that St. Thomas Aquinas did not hold the same position.

Wow! After reading that I'm surprised that Scotus is not in the same bin as Arius.

From God's view of everything  there is no "before and after"... everything just IS.

God didn't will the Trinity... He IS the Trinity.

There is no forseen sin from God's point of view... all sin just IS.

I am still stunned!!!
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Arun
Toxophilic Theophile

Gender: Male
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676


IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS


« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2009, 11:52:PM »

It seems less heretical when interpreted in Scotus's relative context supplied by De Primo Principio
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die.

Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius

BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı

*Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre*
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 372



« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 12:37:AM »

Hmm. Perhaps.
But still the ideas presented here as being those of Scotus are not easily reconciled with the Idea of God's eternity, unchaneability, simplicity (no parts), omnipotence, omniscience etc. that are well summarised (with contemplation) in the phrase......." I AM WHO AM".
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