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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 09:32:AM » |
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Hmm. Perhaps.
But still the ideas presented here as being those of Scotus are not easily reconciled with the Idea of God's eternity, unchaneability, simplicity (no parts), omnipotence, omniscience etc. that are well summarised (with contemplation) in the phrase......." I AM WHO AM".
I don't see what's so different between Scotus' theory and the fact that the "Word became Flesh" and dwelt amongst us 2000 years ago. "Became" is a "before & after" word. It indicates a shift in appearance. So at the Incarnation, the eternal God stepped into time. The theory is He would have done this with or without man's sin, with or without the fall of our first parents. He could have done this at any point in human history and He would no less "I AM WHO AM" than when Jesus spoke these same words to the Jews of the first century. - Lisa |
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- Lisa
While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales
Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
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Walty
There's always a siren singing you to shipwreck.
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 09:37:AM » |
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Hmm. Perhaps.
But still the ideas presented here as being those of Scotus are not easily reconciled with the Idea of God's eternity, unchaneability, simplicity (no parts), omnipotence, omniscience etc. that are well summarised (with contemplation) in the phrase......." I AM WHO AM".
I don't see what's so different between Scotus' theory and the fact that the "Word became Flesh" and dwelt amongst us 2000 years ago. "Became" is a "before & after" word. It indicates a shift in appearance. So at the Incarnation, the eternal God stepped into time. The theory is He would have done this with or without man's sin, with or without the fall of our first parents. He could have done this at any point in human history and He would no less "I AM WHO AM" than when Jesus spoke these same words to the Jews of the first century. - Lisa I'm a staunch Thomist so I have a bias, but what purpose would the Incarnation have served if man had never Fallen? He would spend some time on earth until God called him back to heaven and full union. It's just a matter of time without sin. With sin you need a radical redemption. |
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----------------------------  ---------------------------- ---------------------------Lámh Dhearg Abu--------------------------- This is my hand. I can turn it. The blood is still running in it. The sun is still in the sky and the wind is blowing. And I... I, Antonius Block, play chess with Death. |
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 10:23:AM » |
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I'm a staunch Thomist so I have a bias, but what purpose would the Incarnation have served if man had never Fallen? He would spend some time on earth until God called him back to heaven and full union. It's just a matter of time without sin. With sin you need a radical redemption. God longs to dwell with us forever because He loves us. We were made in HIS image. We are His children. From Genesis to the Apocalypse, indeed throughout all of history, you see evidence that God Himself will dwell among His creation. In the Old Testament you have God's presence in the "Shekhinah" - mainly in the ark of the covenant and in the holy temple in Jerusalem. When the Word became Flesh, all these signs and "types" were fulfilled. In the New Creation, Christ himself will reign among the saints. This is man's purpose and end - to dwell forever with his Creator. Now, Adam & Eve sinned and history did not unfold any other way than what it did - so we can only speculate on what might have happened, and it really is a futile endeavor at this point. We can say with some assurance that if man had not sinned in the original creation we would need no redemption, in other words we would not need to be RE-created. But God did not need man's fall from grace to accomplish His divine plan and purpose. The fact that man did fall, and God came to recreate us to an even more perfect state than before, and especially by His own death, shows how truly infinite and great is God's love for us!!! I remember thinking as a child, in my own childlike/childish way, that I was "GLAD" Adam & Eve sinned, because without their sin we would have "NO JESUS." Then I felt sad and guilty for thinking such a thing. Scotus' theory absolves me. But seeing as history unfolded the way it did, the Lord's Incarnation would have been incomplete without the Lord's Death and Resurrection. That is very true. - Lisa |
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- Lisa
While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales
Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
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Walty
There's always a siren singing you to shipwreck.
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2009, 10:57:AM » |
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I'm a staunch Thomist so I have a bias, but what purpose would the Incarnation have served if man had never Fallen? He would spend some time on earth until God called him back to heaven and full union. It's just a matter of time without sin. With sin you need a radical redemption. God longs to dwell with us forever because He loves us. We were made in HIS image. We are His children. From Genesis to the Apocalypse, indeed throughout all of history, you see evidence that God Himself will dwell among His creation. In the Old Testament you have God's presence in the "Shekhinah" - mainly in the ark of the covenant and in the holy temple in Jerusalem. When the Word became Flesh, all these signs and "types" were fulfilled. In the New Creation, Christ himself will reign among the saints. This is man's purpose and end - to dwell forever with his Creator. Yes, but He was already in some sort of union with man as it was. Indeed, He walked through the garden. And man would spend some time in partial union with Him until He finally was assumed into heaven and full communion. It's an interesting thing to discuss and I certainly am not sold on either side. Maybe we'll know the answer one day, but for now I side with Thomas. I remember thinking as a child, in my own childlike/childish way, that I was "GLAD" Adam & Eve sinned, because without their sin we would have "NO JESUS."
O, happy fault... |
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---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------Lámh Dhearg Abu--------------------------- This is my hand. I can turn it. The blood is still running in it. The sun is still in the sky and the wind is blowing. And I... I, Antonius Block, play chess with Death. |
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2009, 11:32:AM » |
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Yes, but He was already in some sort of union with man as it was. Indeed, He walked through the garden. And man would spend some time in partial union with Him until He finally was assumed into heaven and full communion. It's an interesting thing to discuss and I certainly am not sold on either side. Maybe we'll know the answer one day, but for now I side with Thomas. Of course. I give more weight to St. Thomas myself. It's just that I like Scotus too. I think his theory of the Ultimate Primacy of Christ is a wonderful meditation, as long as we understand that it's not divine revelation and that if the Church ever condemns it, we must no longer entertain the thought. Until the Church says otherwise, I will ponder it from time to time. I guess we'll find out the truth someday if God chooses to reveal it. O, happy fault... Indeed.  |
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- Lisa
While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales
Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
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Oldavid
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 02:48:PM » |
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We're really having difficulty with the idea that
god is detatched from the limitations of time and space aren't we?
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Oldavid
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2009, 02:57:PM » |
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We're really having difficulty with the idea that god is detached from the limitations of time and space aren't we?
I'm not aware that Jesus ever said that. Those words came from way back in the Old Testament somewhere.
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Oldavid
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2009, 02:59:PM » |
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Dear me! I really don't kmow how to work this computer gadget do I.
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DarkKnight
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2009, 03:33:PM » |
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If you can't believe in the Scots, all you're left with is the Welsh.
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A good friend and worthy adversary.
Live your life in such a way that every morning when your feet hit the floor...Satan shudders and says..."Oh No...he's AWAKE!"
Sometimes the Internet reminds me of being in a chicken coop with an infinite number of Chicken Littles at any given millisecond dodging pieces of their falling skies.
There is a subtle difference between "invincible ignorance" and intolerably stupid.
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Arun
Toxophilic Theophile
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IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2009, 04:36:PM » |
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If you can't believe in the Scots, all you're left with is the Welsh.
Hehehehe. Oldavid, I think Lisa is referring to when Our Lord was questioned by the high priest, who asked Him "Art Thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed God?" And Jesus said to him "I AM. And you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming with the clouds of Heaven." [cf Mark XIV:lxii] |
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Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God! Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die. Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! "You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı *Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre* |
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2009, 04:37:PM » |
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I'm not aware that Jesus ever said that. Those words came from way back in the Old Testament somewhere. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." A reference to Exodus. The crowd knew exactly what Jesus meant because they picked up rocks to stone him. The Jews were very conscious of the sacredness of the Divine Name and were afraid to say it publically or even privately. PS: And yes, Arun, that too. :-) |
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- Lisa
While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales
Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
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Oldavid
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2009, 04:58:PM » |
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Ah yes.....fair enough all of you.
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Benno
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 11:48:PM » |
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Best line in the Gospels, I reckon. |
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Don Quixote
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2009, 06:21:PM » |
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"I AM"
Remember the scholatic axiom, "always make a distinction, sometimes confirm, never deny"
Scotus makes distinctions that ordinarily drives a Thomist crazy, metaphysically speaking.
In light of "I AM" the Defender of the Immaculate Conception (whence he debated 100 Parisian theologians defending Our Lady's Immaculate Conception) would point to yes, "I AM WHO AM" and connect the "I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION".
What St. Maximilian Kolbe's last lecture in Aushwitz alluded to that Our Lady is "part" of the Holy Trinity. Now, distinctions again, this is not a god particle or heretically stating she is God. It is a mystery much like the Holy Trinity.
His early death and lost writings (thanks to the heretics in England that purposely destroyed his writings-copies at Cambridge, etc..) would have revealed much more about the Triniy and Our Lady.
In short, God thinks like a Scotus. ie. the SCOTISTIC (Primacy of Christ in Maria of Agreda's writings)
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Don Quixote
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2009, 06:29:PM » |
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Regarding the Original Sin: St. Bonaventure builds on Scotus. St. Bonaventure, the Prince of Mystics, wrote beautifully on Redemption and the Cross. I
n fact, one theologian stated that you will not understand Scripture unless one reads St. Bonaventure. He lays out a map almost like a formula through Redemption.
If you like Scotus, read St. Bonaventure. Redemption and Original Sin will come into a better perspective. Hence, it might be less of a obstacle to understand the Primacy of Christ.
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