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Author Topic: III - Vol.1 Chapter 3: The Cognitive Faculties - Section I  (Read 641 times)
QuisUtDeus
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« on: August 16, 2009, 04:10:PM »

Next section to read / discuss.
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libby

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 05:55:AM »

I don't know if we should wait for Quis' outline...?

... but I have a question about memory.

Father discusses the five exterior senses and the four interior senses of the sensitive faculties.

One of the four interior senses is memory.

Father writes that "the first act of memory is retention or preservation of the species which indicates that the memory is at first a passive power."

He tells us that memory is an active power as well in that it can"bring back to the imagination a species or image previously stored."

Memory also stores our actions as well as the sense species.

My question:

If we have confessed a past transgression, and we retain the memory of this action - how can we use the active power of memory rather than the passive?

In other words, can we rid ourselves of a memory that would continue to be an occasion of sin for us by changing the "habit" of the memory to an active one ( where we would be able to consciously control it) rather than a passive one where we really have no control?

After all, the sin has been confessed and forgiven - I understand where memory serves as a warning to not do something sinful again.

But if it has been forgiven...?

One can sin again by dwelling on a past sin without it occurring again.


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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 10:08:AM »

Well, no, certainly never wait for my outline.  I just post my notes in case people want to compare what they got out of the chapter with what I got out of it.  If there's discussion to be had, then just discuss. Smiley

Sure, there is an active part that can block memories.  We see this most clearly in people who have experienced a traumatic event and have no recollection of it.  The mind protects the person by blocking out the event, maybe a car crash or being assaulted, until such a time when the mind can deal with it.  However, modern psychology shows, and I think it's correct, that the memory is only blocked out from the conscious mind and the subconscious mind (to use psychological terms) still has to deal with it which can cause other problems.  So, in modern therapy, oftentimes the goal is to get the person's psyche strong enough to deal with these things, then gently bring the issue to the foreground where it can be dealt with.  Is this the right approach?  I dunno, but it illustrates that things can be blocked out of conscious memory - now, this is an active blocking, but it is not conscious, and your question is about conscious blocking.

It seems to me that as an act of will we can push memories out, to the back, oftentimes by filling our head with new memories.  But I don't see an active conscious way of forgetting.  It doesn't mean there isn't one, but really throughout history men have studied how to remember better rather than how to forget better....  One problem is that to consciously forget at some level we need to remember the memory to tell ourselves to forget it, but in remembering we strengthen the memory which is the opposite of what we want to do.

On the other hand, in Catholic teaching in confession our sins are completely blotted out.  So, when God forgives us, He, in a sense, does actively destroy His memory of our sin.  But, He's God, we're not, so I dunno if that helps us much except in that we're created in His image, especially with regard to the soul, and memory is part of the soul. So, at first glance it seems it may be possible at some level.

So my opinion is, I don't know if we can actively and consciously forget a memory.  With what we have read so far, and my own cursory knowledge, it doesn't seem impossible, but in practice it seems unlikely.

Also remember that it is "active" in the sense it performs an action rather than being acted upon, not necessarily that we control that action.  So, if we remember something that we do not want to, the memory is actively presenting it even if it is not acting according to our will.  The passive part of memory is the fact that images are impressed upon it.

So your question really comes down to how much our will can direct our memory.  Again, I dunno the answer to that, but it sure is an interesting question.  For sure, our will has control over our thoughts - we can push things out and bring things forward, but as regards memory proper, it's unclear to me. We can will ourselves to remember stuff, but our mind has a mind of its own (heh) sometimes, so I don't know if our control of it can be improved.  It seems doubtful to me...

Also interesting, to me at least, is when you talk about why we remember.  You say the memory serves as a warning not to sin again, and that's true.  The pain of the memory, if we have the right disposition towards it (aha, another scholastic term!) is not to enjoy it, but to feel pain from it - and that guilt and pain, though we have been forgiven, is a form of temporal punishment for the sin.

Of course in all of us who have sinned in ways that "feel good" or we derive enjoyment from, a memory of some sinful act will intrude upon us from time-to-time.  In general, whether we feel pain or pleasure from it, we should push it out: in the case of pain, because we are forgiven - so we accept the pain we feel at that instant as temporal punishment, then push the thought away so we don't become scrupulous or lose faith; in the case of pleasure, because it is sinful - so we don't dwell on it and push it out.

Given a particular sin, it seems to me that whether we feel pain or pleasure from it often comes from our disposition towards the memory.  If we have a (I can't think of a better term, so work with me) "sanctified" disposition, we react in horror.  If we have a "worldly" disposition, we dwell upon it.  So, it may be that the thing to do is if we feel an urge to dwell upon it, take that as a sign we can become more "sanctified".  That does not mean become scrupulous or some nut.  That means realize that we are still weak and have not completely overcome this particular temptation.  It means we still have work to do: prayer, Sacraments, etc.  And in many cases we will never have the correct disposition towards these thoughts because we are fallen creatures, so it will be a life-long battle.  Even the Saints were assaulted in this manner.  What makes them Saints is they didn't die in battle.

Unrelated, but a comment of my own, we see again how our actions affect our soul directly.  We remember our actions in our memory, our memory is part of our soul.  So here is another way our actions imprint themselves on our soul.  Personally, I find it fascinating how our souls are affected by our actions.  As a kid I remember wondering what the mechanism was by which our souls become affected by our actions, good and bad.  With St. Thomas, we are able to see some of those mechanisms.

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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 10:23:AM »

Another thought occurred to me...  Remembering sinful acts often occurs as part of reminiscing.  In other words, a lot of times the sinful thought doesn't just pop into our head from nowhere.  We consider something, probably completely unrelated, and it triggers a chain of thoughts that leads to remembering the sin.

So, in this case, we do have some control since reminiscing is an act of will, and the act of reminiscing seems to lend itself to improvement - there are ways by which we can reminisce "better".  So, maybe at some level we can obtain better control over this act to avoid pulling up certain memories.

For example:

I'm in the kitchen, I see a blender, that reminds me of the appliance department of a store, which reminds me where I met some girl, and then I remember being with that girl in an inappropriate way.

Well, if I had good control, then at the point where I remember meeting the girl in the appliance department I can realize no good will come of this way of thinking and direct my reminiscence elsewhere.  The trick here is, though, to know why it will come to no good, knowing this fact, without pulling up the reason of why it will come to no good - the memory of the sinful act.

But it seems to me that this is more possible, the act of directing our thoughts, than causing ourselves to forget something.
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libby

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 02:02:PM »

quote author=QuisUtDeus link=topic=3423673.msg33140722#msg33140722 date=1250961782]
Another thought occurred to me...  Remembering sinful acts often occurs as part of reminiscing.  In other words, a lot of times the sinful thought doesn't just pop into our head from nowhere.  We consider something, probably completely unrelated, and it triggers a chain of thoughts that leads to remembering the sin.


But reminiscing is a willful act - memories may bring back an act, but they are not (necessarily) voluntary.

If I reminisce about something,  I'm making myself remember something.

So, in this case, we do have some control since reminiscing is an act of will, and the act of reminiscing seems to lend itself to improvement - there are ways by which we can reminisce "better".  So, maybe at some level we can obtain better control over this act to avoid pulling up certain memories.

yes... that.

 Smiley



For example:

I'm in the kitchen, I see a blender, that reminds me of the appliance department of a store, which reminds me where I met some girl, and then I remember being with that girl in an inappropriate way.

Well, if I had good control, then at the point where I remember meeting the girl in the appliance department I can realize no good will come of this way of thinking and direct my reminiscence elsewhere.  The trick here is, though, to know why it will come to no good, knowing this fact, without pulling up the reason of why it will come to no good - the memory of the sinful act.

But it seems to me that this is more possible, the act of directing our thoughts, than causing ourselves to forget something.
[/quote]

I understand this - I agree.

But what if, for example, I'm walking in a store and someone walks by wearing a scent that slams me with an unwanted memory?

No time to think it through, no time to redirect thoughts.

Father writes that "Reminiscence is the process by which one reconstructs what happened in the past". He also points out that the reminiscent process "can go in the wrong direction" - I guess hypnosis?

Then again, we're all pretty good at re-writing history - so maybe that's what he means. And maybe that's what I'm trying to understand as well .

If we are given absolution, and the sin has been washed away - and we are not reminiscing, but truly trying to avoid doing so ...

...then?
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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 02:06:PM »

If we are given absolution, and the sin has been washed away - and we are not reminiscing, but truly trying to avoid doing so ...

...then?


Are you asking if it is a sin if a thought pops into our heads out of our control?  The answer is no, it is only a sin if we dwell upon the thought and receive pleasure (or anger or whatever the sinful feeling is) out of it.  If it pops in out of our control, we are to try our hardest to push it out, but the occurrence of a thought outside of our control is not considered sinful from what I have been taught.
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Just because God made it doesn't mean we get to "Woo-Hoo" it.
libby

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Personality type: INFP
Posts: 5,193


"does this bike make me look fat?" - VoxClamantis


« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 07:17:PM »



Quis, I guess my question deals with reminiscence rather than memory proper -

Father writes that "Reminiscence is the process by which one goes from what is prior and known to what is posterior and unknown."  So, I can ( purposely ) dredge up some memory about a thing or a time. I can think about something bad that happened to me or that I did - something that I have forgiven or has been forgiven of me ( sacramentally).

Barring inaccurate memory, powers of suggestion from others,and an active imagination, what if a sinful memory persists in other ways? What if I do have control?


Ok - I will myself to control a specific memory. But even when I control the how, where, and when of bringing the memory forth, and I steer the memory in a manner that I would not be sinning by remembering something evil that has happened, that memory can be manipulated.

I have learned ( my will ) to control the memory - something that has been confessed and forgiven. I remember this forgiven sin, but something eventually happens where I sin again ( anger, desire, whatever)  in remembering... even if this manipulation was not my doing.


I know what happened - I know it was forgiven - I know ( knew?) how to control the memory so that in reminiscing I will not sin again. But, by some force that is not of my doing, I find myself sinning again ( but in a different manner) when I remember.

I suppose I'm wondering if we can somehow change the habit of a memory so that it can't be manipulated by ourselves or others so that it is NOT
a memory that is always changing, always morphing into another pain, another horror, another sin.

...static memory?
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