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Author Topic: Question re: St. Thomas Aquinas on Abortion  (Read 673 times)
Master_P

Gender: Male
Personality type: Pretty laid back
Posts: 362



« on: September 26, 2009, 12:15:AM »

Philosophers of the Fishtank, I need your help.

I'm currently enrolled in a moral philosophy class. In the text book St. Thomas's speculation about the ensoulment of the fetus is used as a pro-choice argument. I pointed out to the teacher that St. Thomas still considered abortion to be a grave sin. Now she wants me to provide quotes of St. Thomas that prove this. Actually this is just something I've heard said often. I've been looking through the Summa and online articles but I can't understand what he's talking about half the time. Does anyone know of any relevant quotes of St. Thomas Aquinas that show he condemned abortion even if he didn't think it was homicide?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give~
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Pro Deo et patria
Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES

Posts: 11,113



« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 09:51:AM »

Philosophers of the Fishtank, I need your help.

I'm currently enrolled in a moral philosophy class. In the text book St. Thomas's speculation about the ensoulment of the fetus is used as a pro-choice argument. I pointed out to the teacher that St. Thomas still considered abortion to be a grave sin. Now she wants me to provide quotes of St. Thomas that prove this. Actually this is just something I've heard said often. I've been looking through the Summa and online articles but I can't understand what he's talking about half the time. Does anyone know of any relevant quotes of St. Thomas Aquinas that show he condemned abortion even if he didn't think it was homicide?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give~

We went over this and my response was liked.

St. Thomas never advocated abortion in anyway; he was just wrong about when conception/ensoulment took place. Remember, he could have no knowledge of reproduction between external events. For someone without any biological instruction, the time of ejaculation to birth is a candidate for ensoulment.

I could look up more specific quotes. Give me some time.

EDIT: For now, read: http://thepracticingcatholic.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/st-thomas-aquinas-confronts-an-abortionist/
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 09:54:AM by Rosarium » Logged

orate

Gender: Female
Personality type: ENFJ
Posts: 809


Patron of the Universal Church, pray for us!


« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2009, 10:02:AM »

"While Aquinas had opposed abortion — as a form of contraception and a sin against marriage — he had maintained that the sin in abortion was not homicide unless the fetus was ensouled, and thus, a human being."

Taken from:  http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/Law111/CatholicHistory.htm

Referring to contraception (abortion as contraception), the Angelic Doctor declared: “Hence, after the sin of homicide whereby a human life already in existence is destroyed, this type of sin appears to take next place, for by it the generation of human nature is impeded.” (emphsis mine)

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, 3, 122.

Taken from:  http://www.tldm.org/News11/ContraceptionSaintThomasAquinas.htm

Although Aqinas did not consider abortion homicide, per se, He did consider it a grave sin.  He considered it the next gravest sin as it impeded the generation of human nature.

Possibly had Aquinas the biological knowledge we have today, he would have a different opinion of when ensoulment took place.

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Pray always!
orate

Gender: Female
Personality type: ENFJ
Posts: 809


Patron of the Universal Church, pray for us!


« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2009, 10:13:AM »

I think that this statement succinctly states the proper attitude of Catholics towards the evil of abortion.


"Thomas based his stance on ensoulment on the rational beliefs of his day. The 13th century had no modern science as we understand it, and scholars of the time held that life arose spontaneously from non-living matter. When God infused a human soul into non-living matter, identifiably human qualities would appear. Without the benefit of microscopes and other techniques of observation within the human body, people of centuries ago were simply ignorant of the facts of conception. They had no knowledge of the genetic make-up of embryos. In the earliest stages of gestation, they did not perceive the human qualities that would be present if a human soul were there.

That said, Thomas held, as did most moral theologians, that abortion still constituted a grave sin. Despite not being perceived to have a soul, the contents of a woman’s womb and the semen of a man were still considered the “non-living” material that would produce a human being. This would be at the root of the Church’s teaching on masturbation: a moral Christian should honor what contributes to human life as she or he would honor human life itself.  (emphasis mine)

Ensoulment has never been the Church’s main objection to abortion. It should also be pointed out that conception doesn’t always produce a unique human being. We know that twins or other multiples can emerge from a single fertilized human egg, or even that very early-stage multiples can fuse into one being. These facts do not detract from our moral beliefs on abortion."

Taken from:  http://catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/thomas-aquinas-on-ensoulment/
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 10:16:AM by orate » Logged

Pray always!
iggyting

Posts: 243


« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 08:56:PM »

The motive for an abortion is always considered as paramount for Catholic moral theologians. The Church's teaching is abortion, whatever the motive, is a sin. Exception is made to the medical case where the life of the unborn is sacrificed for that of the mother - the 'lesser evil' argument. But, the divisive issue is whether cases of conception through violence (like rape) or abominable acts (like incest), others, fall into this 'lesser evil' category. Here, I think the Church's stand is for the intrinsic dignity of the unborn baby, a religious argument that is totally rejected by the secular world.
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Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES

Posts: 11,113



« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2009, 09:54:AM »

The motive for an abortion is always considered as paramount for Catholic moral theologians. The Church's teaching is abortion, whatever the motive, is a sin. Exception is made to the medical case where the life of the unborn is sacrificed for that of the mother - the 'lesser evil' argument. But, the divisive issue is whether cases of conception through violence (like rape) or abominable acts (like incest), others, fall into this 'lesser evil' category. Here, I think the Church's stand is for the intrinsic dignity of the unborn baby, a religious argument that is totally rejected by the secular world.
But that is also not quite true. There is no such thing as "abortion to save the life of the mother". There is "premature delivery to save the lives of the unborn and the mother". When early, it is inevitable the baby will die, but that was not the intent.

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Master_P

Gender: Male
Personality type: Pretty laid back
Posts: 362



« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2009, 04:10:PM »

Guys, thanks for pointing me in the right direction! The quotes and links were very helpful. Fishies all around! This class is pretty ridiculous but I'll do my best to present a solid case for the truth.
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Pro Deo et patria
petrelton

Posts: 378


« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 10:48:PM »

The motive for an abortion is always considered as paramount for Catholic moral theologians. The Church's teaching is abortion, whatever the motive, is a sin. Exception is made to the medical case where the life of the unborn is sacrificed for that of the mother - the 'lesser evil' argument. But, the divisive issue is whether cases of conception through violence (like rape) or abominable acts (like incest), others, fall into this 'lesser evil' category. Here, I think the Church's stand is for the intrinsic dignity of the unborn baby, a religious argument that is totally rejected by the secular world.
But that is also not quite true. There is no such thing as "abortion to save the life of the mother". There is "premature delivery to save the lives of the unborn and the mother". When early, it is inevitable the baby will die, but that was not the intent.
Are you sure about that? Does not sound right to me. Doctors are not always right. To instigate a procedure which will almost certainly result in the death of the foetus is abortion. How can you say "premature delivery to save both lives" on the one hand and then "it is inevitable the baby will die" on the other. This is a complete contradiction.

Here is Piux XII from his "Allocution to Large Families" which I would consider of greater reliability.

Pius XII = "Any direct attempt on an innocent life as a means to an end - even to the end of saving another life - is unlawful

Pius XII = "Never and in no case has the Church taught that the life of the child must be preferred to that of the mother.  It is erroneous to put the question with this alternative: either the life of the child or that of the mother.  No, neither the life of the mother nor that of the child can be subjected to an act of direct suppression.  In the one case as in the other, there can be but one obligation: to make every effort to save the lives of both, of the mother and of the child."

Pius XII = "It is one of the finest and most noble aspirations of the medical profession to search continually for new means of ensuring the life of both mother and child.  But if, notwithstanding all the progress of science, there still remain, and will remain in the future, cases in which one must reckon with the death of the mother, when the mother wills to bring to birth the life that is within her and not destroy it in violation of the command of God - Thou shalt not kill - nothing else remains for the man, who will make every effort till the very last moment to help and save, but to bow respectfully before the laws of nature and the dispositions of divine Providence."

Pius XII = ""Deliberately We have always used the expression 'direct attempt on the life of an innocent person,' 'direct killing.'  Because if, for example, the saving of the life of the future mother, independently of her pregnant condition, should urgently require a surgical act or other therapeutic treatment which would have as an accessory consequence, in no way desired nor intended, but inevitable, the death of the fetus, such an act could no longer be called a direct attempt on an innocent life.  Under these conditions the operation can be lawful, like other similar medical interventions - granted always that a good of high worth is concerned, such as life, and that it is not possible to postpone the operation until after the birth of the child, nor to have recourse to other efficacious remedies." 

To suggest that the Popes "surgical act or therapy" extends to an early inducement of a pregnancy is a severe distortion of his intent and completely contradicts his earlier statements. The Pope may be referring to the case of ectopic pregnancies where the mother and child it is claimed by science will almost certainly die if action is not taken. In that case according to modern parlance the problem is the fallopian tube. The injured or defective tube is removed and as an unavoidable consequence the feotus dies. I have a number of concerns about this concession. God stated to Eve that he would greatly increase her sorrow at childbirth. Suffering and even death in childbirth is a natural consequence of this punishment. The use of medical science to bypass the natural order is a questionable grey area.

What is rarely mentioned in the debate is that half of ectopic pregnancies result in a tubal miscarriage and the mother survives with no lasting effect. So a surgical intervention can render a woman infertile (at least on one side) who might have otherwise survived and been able to conceive again.

In fact I would seriously question some of the statistics being put out by the medical profession. They say that 1 in 100 pregnancies are ectopic. So given that half of these would survive without intervention then that would be 1 in 200 maternal deaths. Now if we look at your regular developed nation rural maternal death rate eg. in Egypt it is about 200 maternal deaths out of 100,000 live births. http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0230.htm

That translates to 1 maternal death out of 500 births. In fact very few of these 1 in 500 deaths were caused by ectopic pregnancies and most were as a result of poor hygiene, blood loss, poor pre-natal care and poor birthing skills. So clearly the problem of ectopic pregnancies is vastly overstated and unnecessary interventions are ruining women's fallopian tubes. None of this makes it easy for the catholic parents confronted with a doctor bearing bad news, but this is where we need the muscle of the church to stand up for the truth and oppose medical science when necessary. Sadly this is not happening today and compromises to the might of medical science are constantly being made with every pronouncement of doctors being regarded as gospel truth. With their bold words they hold the balance of life and death. This should not be.
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Here are the words of Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) regarding the New Mass:

The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.
(Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104)
Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES

Posts: 11,113



« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 11:35:PM »

The motive for an abortion is always considered as paramount for Catholic moral theologians. The Church's teaching is abortion, whatever the motive, is a sin. Exception is made to the medical case where the life of the unborn is sacrificed for that of the mother - the 'lesser evil' argument. But, the divisive issue is whether cases of conception through violence (like rape) or abominable acts (like incest), others, fall into this 'lesser evil' category. Here, I think the Church's stand is for the intrinsic dignity of the unborn baby, a religious argument that is totally rejected by the secular world.
But that is also not quite true. There is no such thing as "abortion to save the life of the mother". There is "premature delivery to save the lives of the unborn and the mother". When early, it is inevitable the baby will die, but that was not the intent.
Are you sure about that? Does not sound right to me. Doctors are not always right. To instigate a procedure which will almost certainly result in the death of the foetus is abortion. How can you say "premature delivery to save both lives" on the one hand and then "it is inevitable the baby will die" on the other. This is a complete contradiction.
Almost certainly result? Nothing is certain. Birth itself is not certain.

They can only do the best they can.

Pre-eclampsia for instance. It can be treated to some degree, but if it can't be controlled (it can't be cured), it is deadly for the woman and child. They must deliver the baby to save the baby and mother. This condition can come about as early as 20 weeks, and I think the youngest surviving premature baby was delivered at 21 weeks, so we can assume that delivering at 20 weeks is too early, however, it is the only possible way of saving the child. If they don't, it is certain that both will die. Any premature delivery is risky.

Answer this question: if there is an external cause of danger, which you can prevent, yet the person is not going to survive long after anyway, should you intervene? If Doctor Death is standing over a patient who is most likely going to die of a condition which cannot be treated, and he is going to kill that patient, is it objectionable? The patient is going to die anyway right? Preventing Doctor Death from killing the patient would just result in death of another cause soon after, so that is helping with murder...either way.

Right?
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iggyting

Posts: 243


« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 12:10:AM »

Yes Pope Pius XII made it quite clear that even if an inevitable surgical act or therapy  (like in the case of ectopic pregnancy) is considered the intent is not to kill the fetus. Again the motive is of paramount concern. However, the consequence itself (the technical abortion) is objectively evil even though the intent is not. Maybe a moral theologian can refine this 'lesser evil' argument.

Petrelton raised a valid point about modern medical science 'playing God' in many areas concerning life-and-death decision. The present-day lay Catholics are increasingly drawn into this grey area of intent versus the inevitable. I think the wisdom of the Church is to appeal to a properly informed good conscience. Any thoughts?
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