Is the new Catechism the final authority?

[Valz]

When it comes to discerning doctrine, is the new Catechism the final authority for Catholics?

Just a question thrown around by someone else.

[Joshua]

When it comes to discerning doctrine, is the new Catechism the final authority on matters of doctrine for Catholics?

Just a question through around by someone else.

Not even close.

The New Catechism is fraught with JPII's own prudential opinions (the entry on Capitol Punishment comes to mind). It does not enjoy the same status of the Roman Catechism of Trent which was the product of the Dogmatic Council of Trent which stated that the commission for a new Catechism was to result in an official authoritative catechetical text of the Church. In addition it was under the patronage and supervision of both Pope St. Pius V and St. Charles Borromeo.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua

[Valz]

Not even close.

The New Catechism is fraught with JPII's own prudential opinions (the entry on Capitol Punishment comes to mind). It does not enjoy the same status of the Roman Catechism of Trent which was the product of the Dogmatic Council of Trent which stated that the commission for a new Catechism was to result in an official authoritative catechetical text of the Church. In addition it was under the patronage and supervision of both Pope St. Pius V and St. Charles Borromeo.

But Pope John Paul II in his promulgation of the new Catechism, the constitution Fidei Depositum, said the following:

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church's Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation"

Surely this counts as something? How does it not enjoys the same status as the Catechism of Trent which it intends to replace?

[Herr_Mannelig]

When it comes to discerning doctrine, is the new Catechism the final authority for Catholics?

Just a question thrown around by someone else.

No, it isn't. Although it is free of error (I think), it is only a catechism.

Much of it is how things are presented and worded. One can write the same thing, but with entirely different slants.

[Joshua]

Surely this counts as something? How does it not enjoys the same status as the Catechism of Trent which it intends to replace?

This Catechism is the perfect road companion of Vatican II and an amalgamation of all its ambiguous (though not heretical) glory, as JPII states:

The Catechism was also indispensable (i.e., as well as the 1983 Code of Canon Law),  in order that all the richness of the teaching of the Church following the Second Vatican Council could be preserved in a new synthesis and be given a new direction. (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, London, Jonathen Cape, 1994, p. 164)

Pope John Paul II's endorsement of his new Catechism is nothing more than an overwrought statement that it is free from error. It's the commissioned product of JPII's own personal desire and was simply given a stamp of free-from-error ...

The New CCC is not an infallible text, but it may contain the infallible teachings of the Church. Any fallible text can contain infallible comments. It is not in an of itself an infallible text, but it contains infallible statements when it is conveying the teachings of the Church and not JPII's own prudential opinions which are weaved into the bulk of its contents.

The way it was explained to me, folks, is that the Roman Catechism differs as it is not an infallible text solely by virtue of its contents, but by virtue of itself. It, in and of itself, in an infallible piece of ecclesiastical legislature as it was given full approbation by a Dogmatic Council commissioned via the approbation of the Pope. The Council of Trent is defined as Dogmatic as all of its decrees (including the commission for the Roman Catechism) carried the official infallible approbation of the three Popes who presided over the 18 years of this grand Council (Popes Paul III, Julius III and Pius IV). The Roman Catechism was completed subsequent to the conclusion of the Council and was given full approbation by Pope St. Pius V as the official Catechism of Holy Mother Church. No catechism commissioned subsequently or antecedent to Trent has enjoyed this solemn promulgation.


In Corde Regis,
Joshua

[Valz]

This Catechism is the perfect road companion of Vatican II and an amalgamation of all its ambiguous (though not heretical) glory, as JPII states:

The Catechism was also indispensable (i.e., as well as the 1983 Code of Canon Law),  in order that all the richness of the teaching of the Church following the Second Vatican Council could be preserved in a new synthesis and be given a new direction. (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, London, Jonathen Cape, 1994, p. 164)

Pope John Paul II's endorsement of his new Catechism is nothing more than an overwrought statement that it is free from error. It's the commissioned product of JPII's own personal desire and was simply given a stamp of free-from-error ...

The New CCC is not an infallible text, but it may contain the infallible teachings of the Church. Any fallible text can contain infallible comments. It is not in an of itself an infallible text, but it contains infallible statements when it is conveying the teachings of the Church and not JPII's own prudential opinions which are weaved into the bulk of its contents.

Thanks for your response Joshua. I don't disagree with you. The question I asked was because there is a Catholic I am exchanging messages with who seems to believe in Sola Catechism and who takes the Catechism as his final authority (so much that if he thinks councils contradict it, he takes the Catechism over them). He is asking this same question to me. I was looking for some perspectives on the matter to see what kind of answer I could give. I know the Catechism is not an infallible or perfect text, but it seems this person doesn't believes that way and probably sees it as some infallible and dogmatic document which is binding upon Catholics on everything it says. The Catechism is not exhaustive either and it is not meant to be anyway.

I understand the many problems with the new Catechism and I see both the Catechism of Trent and the Baltimore Catechism as far superior to it. But he is not a traditionalist, so this new Catechism is to him like a Bible of sorts.




Valz

[glgas]

When it comes to discerning doctrine, is the new Catechism the final authority for Catholics?

Just a question thrown around by someone else.

It is the most present comprehensive document of the Living Magisterium, and as such it is higher authority that anyone in this group.

The Catechism is  not infallible, but binding document. Everyone is obliged to read and interpret it benevolently, with respect of the proper authority, the Church.

Resist the Adversary: Gen 3:5  your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

[Valz]

It is the most present comprehensive document of the Living Magisterium, and as such it is higher authority that anyone in this group.

The Catechism is  not infallible, but binding document. Everyone is obliged to read and interpret it benevolently, with respect of the proper authority, the Church.

Ok. Let's say you and I disagree over some point of Catholic doctrine. Is the new Catechism our ultimate authority for settling things?

[Herr_Mannelig]

It is the most present comprehensive document of the Living Magisterium, and as such it is higher authority that anyone in this group.

The Catechism is  not infallible, but binding document. Everyone is obliged to read and interpret it benevolently, with respect of the proper authority, the Church.

Ok. Let's say you and I disagree over some point of Catholic doctrine. Is the new Catechism our ultimate authority for settling things?

No. The Catechism is limited. You'd have to find the basis of the statement in the Catechism in infallible teachings.

It is an important tool for the laity to use for education, so it should be rather free from error and not contradict the Church's teachings in any way, but it is not for random people to interpret. The ultimate authority is the Church.

[CrusaderKing]

It's important to remember this: Pope John Paul II promulgated a Catechism that contained errors, then he had to recall it and issue a new one in 1994.  Who's to say this one doesn't contain errors?

This Catechism, as well as many of his writings, will have to be scrutinized by a future Pope.

[Valz]

No. The Catechism is limited. You'd have to find the basis of the statement in the Catechism in infallible teachings.

That is very much what I told this person and did. I quoted a council and then he told me that the council contradicts the Catechism and that he takes the Catechism as his authority.

Sigh...

[Herr_Mannelig]

No. The Catechism is limited. You'd have to find the basis of the statement in the Catechism in infallible teachings.

That is very much what I told this person and did. I quoted a council and then he told me that the council contradicts the Catechism and that he takes the Catechism as his authority.

Sigh...

That is like taking a review of a movie as the movie.

[Valz]

It's important to remember this: Pope John Paul II promulgated a Catechism that contained errors, then he had to recall it and issue a new one in 1994.  Who's to say this one doesn't contain errors?

My main beef with the new Catechism is with the gaps and ambiguities. It seems to ignore some things which The Church teaches dogmatically and in passing them in silence, goes on to speculate towards conclusions that run contrary to previously defined teaching. Or when it does touches on some dogmas, it turns them on it's head.

For instance, it omits that those who die in Original Sin only are deprived of the vision of God and only speaks about those on mortal sin descending to Hell. In addition to this, it poses the speculation of hoping that unbaptized infants may be saved without mentioning Limbo a single time. In such speculations it provides no authoritative citation (as there isn't) and so we are left with a speculaiton without any foundaiton in Tradition that is supposed to represent Catholic teaching because it is in a Catechism approved by the Pope.

[Valz]

That is like taking a review of a movie as the movie.

Might it not be objected that one is not to draw his personal conclusion about the movie (private interpretation of papal and conciliar texts) and must rely on the official review (the Church's presentaiton of the faith in the Catechism)?

[jovan66102]

Your friend has it completely bassackward. The Catechism is not infallible, it simply attempts (badly in my opinion) to present the Teaching of the Church in a convenient format. The Infallible Teaching of the Church is contained in Decrees of Dogmatic Councils, Apostolic Constitutions of the Popes, etc. If the Catechism seems to contradict something in these documents, one must take the Teaching presented in the documents as authoritative.