Cradle Trads

[glgas]

Fr. Dolan is now Bp. Daniel Dolan

Bp?

Bishop.

oh ok. When he was here, he was SSPX...is he still?

Here is his story from the wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dolan

Here is the mostly confirming traditionalist biography

http://www.traditionalmass.org/priests/dolan.php

[petrelton]

Fr. Dolan is now Bp. Daniel Dolan

Bp?

Stands for Bishop. It should be noted that Bishop Daniel Dolan is illicitly consecrated and therefore has no proper authority over the faithful and is therefore not a bishop in the fullest sense. His status is similar to that of the Orthodox bishops. They still pass on apostolic succession and so have valid orders but they operate illicitly and in opposition to the sovereign pontiff. This is indeed a grave error and injurious to souls.  

However when we say that illicit bishops are injurious to souls it should also be noted that the validity of some of their sacraments (eg. Eucharist and baptism and Holy Orders) bestows graces to those individuals who receive them.

As Dominus Iesus states.
"17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the (Roman) Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the (Roman) Catholic Church…"

Even though Bishop Dolan acts outside the structure of the church it can hardly be doubted that "many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" in his group.

Therefore we see that the core and completeness of the catholic faith exists as a single Church of Christ in the Catholic Church and is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.

Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative in  Bishop Dolans "church", even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, because they do not accept that the Bishop of Rome exercises the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy over the entire church at this time.

Whether these "elements of sanctification and truth" which exist in these seperated fellowships are adequate for salvation is no sure thing. The council is not clear on this point except to say that the "mystery of salvation" is available to them (whatever that means). I take it that reading between the lines that there is a sure hope of salvation in the One Holy Apostolic Catholic church whereas you are taking your chances in these other "particular churches". Dominus Iesus basically states that God in his infinite mercy and wisdom does not fail to recognise those elements of sanctification and truth in seperated fellowships and that these graces are effective upon certain individuals depending on their level of knowledge and culpability. It also shows that the source of all goodness, sanctification and truth is the One Holy Apostolic Catholic church through which all nations of the world are blessed and that her graces although diluted by schism are not entirely lost or defective.

[Tobri]

In Eastern Europe things are really nothing like USA and western europe (france, germany, netherlands) - nothing really changed visually after Vatican 2 save versus populum, same hymns were sung, incense, extravagant vestments with lots of lace, beautiful churches with painting and mosaics. As a young kid my dad (whom no longer practiced and never had me baptized) would every once in a while take me too mass, I dont remember much just how pretty everything was and I remember there was Latin in the ("Novus Ordo") liturgy and things were semichanted, to a little kid it was something!

[piabee]

Fr Dolan? We had a priest by that name once, was he a super tall, red haired guy? I remember he always wore fancy hats. He was stationed in our city for about a year or so, and he taught at my school

I know the Fr. Dolan you mean; he is in California now. He helps out occasionally at the trad school that I attended for high school but I don't think he's SSPX anymore.

[CanadianCatholic]

Fr Dolan? We had a priest by that name once, was he a super tall, red haired guy? I remember he always wore fancy hats. He was stationed in our city for about a year or so, and he taught at my school

I know the Fr. Dolan you mean; he is in California now. He helps out occasionally at the trad school that I attended for high school but I don't think he's SSPX anymore.

Yeah, that other Fr dolan looks older then the one I was thinking

[serviam]

Fr. Dolan is now Bp. Daniel Dolan

Bp?

Stands for Bishop. It should be noted that Bishop Daniel Dolan is illicitly consecrated and therefore has no proper authority over the faithful and is therefore not a bishop in the fullest sense. His status is similar to that of the Orthodox bishops. They still pass on apostolic succession and so have valid orders but they operate illicitly and in opposition to the sovereign pontiff. This is indeed a grave error and injurious to souls.  

However when we say that illicit bishops are injurious to souls it should also be noted that the validity of some of their sacraments (eg. Eucharist and baptism and Holy Orders) bestows graces to those individuals who receive them.

As Dominus Iesus states.
"17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the (Roman) Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the (Roman) Catholic Church…"

Even though Bishop Dolan acts outside the structure of the church it can hardly be doubted that "many elements can be found of sanctification and truth" in his group.

Therefore we see that the core and completeness of the catholic faith exists as a single Church of Christ in the Catholic Church and is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.

Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative in  Bishop Dolans "church", even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, because they do not accept that the Bishop of Rome exercises the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy over the entire church at this time.

Whether these "elements of sanctification and truth" which exist in these seperated fellowships are adequate for salvation is no sure thing. The council is not clear on this point except to say that the "mystery of salvation" is available to them (whatever that means). I take it that reading between the lines that there is a sure hope of salvation in the One Holy Apostolic Catholic church whereas you are taking your chances in these other "particular churches". Dominus Iesus basically states that God in his infinite mercy and wisdom does not fail to recognise those elements of sanctification and truth in seperated fellowships and that these graces are effective upon certain individuals depending on their level of knowledge and culpability. It also shows that the source of all goodness, sanctification and truth is the One Holy Apostolic Catholic church through which all nations of the world are blessed and that her graces although diluted by schism are not entirely lost or defective.

agreed

[mom]

Out of curiosity (and perhaps to confirm some observation I’ve had) I would like to hear from those of you who were born into tradition (baptized by traditional priests in infancy or childhood) and who have only attended traditional chapels and the TLM exclusively all or most of your lives. Whether SSPX, SSPV, FSSP, Independent or Indult, etc.

I would also like to hear from converts who converted directly to tradition.

Please share your experience and thoughts about your upbringing. Are there circumstances which bring you kicking and screaming to a Novus Ordo Mass, like maybe a funeral, wedding, other?  Have you never attended the NO but have you only heard of it via Internet discussion, YouTube, etc? What was your opinion of the Pope when you were growing up? The US Bishops? Did you feel isolated from the rest of Catholicism? I am anxious to hear from Cradle Trads, not those who switched from Novus Ordo to tradition. Thanks.
 
- Lisa

i have attended NO weddings, funerals and a few regular Sunday Masses. I have only been out and out scacndalized once. It was a wedding, they had a band in the church-electric guitars, keyboard and a singer wearing a tube top.
Most of the other NO masses I have attended were not scandalous, just banal. and I have attended a few NO masses that were just fine, IMO. Nothing changed but langage. ad orientam, chant, no altar girls,solid sermon etc....
yes, often feel isolated from the rest of catholicism. sometimes that is good, sometimes it is bad.

[mom]

The FSSP was formed in 1988, it's 21 years old. How strange it is for many of us to be older than these priestly institutes.

My experience (myself, my sons, my grandchildren) and also the traditional teaching is that the forming of conscientious decisions starts about age 12;

Also the FSSP was separated from the SSPX in the end on the 1980's, and the SSPX was formed in 1969.

Consequently anyone born after 1957 (the majority of the group) whose parents belonged to the SSPX continuosly, or parted with the FSSP later can answer the question honestly.

Is there anybody here whose parents kept the faith continuously with the SSPX - FSSP line?

my hsuabnds family have been associated with/attending sspx chapels since the 70's and still do, for the most part their children and grandchildren still do too.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Thanks Mom, and everyone who responded on this thread. The "observation" I've had (going purely on Internet discussion) is that Cradle Trads don't seem as hostile/bitter/antagonistic as those who switched from Novus Ordo to tradition. My guess is it's because Cradle Trads don't feel "cheated" .. They've enjoyed the beauty and benefits of tradition for most if not all of their lives, whereas those who spent (wasted?) xxx amount of years in the NO feel they have been robbed, ripped off, and it manifests a greater frustration and bitterness.

That's not true for everyone, obviously. It's just an observation I've had. No big whoop-dee-doo. Perhaps another factor has to do with easy access to a TLM. If a traditional Catholic has a TLM they can attend regularly, they might be less likely to bash the NO for mere lack of interest. Then again, maybe not. :-)

- Lisa

[CanadianCatholic]

Thanks Mom, and everyone who responded on this thread. The "observation" I've had (going purely on Internet discussion) is that Cradle Trads don't seem as hostile/bitter/antagonistic as those who switched from Novus Ordo to tradition. My guess is it's because Cradle Trads don't feel "cheated" .. They've enjoyed the beauty and benefits of tradition for most if not all of their lives, whereas those who spent (wasted?) xxx amount of years in the NO feel they have been robbed, ripped off, and it manifests a greater frustration and bitterness.

That's not true for everyone, obviously. It's just an observation I've had. No big whoop-dee-doo. Perhaps another factor has to do with easy access to a TLM. If a traditional Catholic has a TLM they can attend regularly, they might be less likely to bash the NO for mere lack of interest. Then again, maybe not. :-)

- Lisa

To be honest, and completely from my own observations, I find newer trads to be a bit harsher as well. Not all of course, but many. I think they are just so zealous, that sometimes they take it a little over board. Also, us Cradle trads tend to take it for granted sometime, unfortunately, as we've had it for so long, maybe we dont always appreciate it as much as we should.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Also, us Cradle trads tend to take it for granted sometime, unfortunately, as we've had it for so long, maybe we dont always appreciate it as much as we should.

I think many of us Pre-Vatican II Catholics took it for granted too.

[CanadianCatholic]

Also, us Cradle trads tend to take it for granted sometime, unfortunately, as we've had it for so long, maybe we dont always appreciate it as much as we should.

I think many of us Pre-Vatican II Catholics took it for granted too.

I always feel so crappy when this attitude sets in..Im so lucky to have it, I just feel rotten for not appreciating as much as I should...

[ggreg]

The FSSP was formed in 1988, it's 21 years old. How strange it is for many of us to be older than these priestly institutes.

My experience (myself, my sons, my grandchildren) and also the traditional teaching is that the forming of conscientious decisions starts about age 12;

Also the FSSP was separated from the SSPX in the end on the 1980's, and the SSPX was formed in 1969.

Consequently anyone born after 1957 (the majority of the group) whose parents belonged to the SSPX continuosly, or parted with the FSSP later can answer the question honestly.

Is there anybody here whose parents kept the faith continuously with the SSPX - FSSP line?

Yes, mine did.

But obviously in the early 1970s nearly everyone went to a few new masses because there was no other choice.  There was no FSSP and the SSPX was 7 years away from establishing Sunday mass in the major capitals.  Then people had to find out about it and in a pre-internet world that was MUCH harder to do.

But as long as I can remember we went to the new mass in Latin on Sunday rather than English until about 1978.  My mother used to cry after mass because as a convert from Anglicanism (low) she felt like she had joined the Catholic Church in 1950 only to be hoodwinked back to a protestant service 19 years later.

Luckily for her she died young.

[Gie2me]

 

[AndreasAngelopolitanus]

I'm a Cradle Trad... very odd growing up, it was very clear to us what was going on, but it was so hard to explain to others. I was Baptized, made my first Holy Communion and My Confirmation from Father Melito, an Independent Priest who had a letter from the Pope himself allowing Father Melito to celebrate the TLM with out any interuptions from any diocese.

No, no, no... I've read it here in the Forums, so it MUST be true.  Fr. Melito is an "Independent"...therefore he MUST be a sedevacantist.




   / tongue-in-cheek rant off