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Author Topic: Council of Trent dilemna  (Read 1808 times)
StrictCatholicGirl

Posts: 6,696



« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 02:59:PM »

The Fathers of Trent did not have the Novus Ordo in mind when they wrote that anathema.

What about the Holy Ghost did He have it in mind?

The Holy Spirit works through men of their times, just like he did when inspiring the Scripture writers. That anathema was made with Protestants in mind who denied the power of the sacraments and their rites, and who said that the trappings of ritual, i.e. vestments, incense, etc were mere outwards motions that conferred no grace, or were impediments to grace, or actually encouraged impiety. 

You have to let the Church interpret her own councils. I mean, I’m asking... are church documents written for laymen or clergy? We laymen obviously aren’t prohibited from reading them, but were they written for bishops and priests for the purpose of instructing the laity? Is it wrong of me to listen to what my own priest says – or for you to listen to what your priest says?
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- Lisa

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales

Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
NonSumDignus

Posts: 513



« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 03:17:PM »

Wouldn't you say that this is the exception rather than the rule?

If you walk into an average US Catholic Church today, Australian, French, Italian, Spanish, Irish, African, Chinese Patriotic are they going to be as solidly Orthodox?

If not, then why be a Traditionalist on Sundays?  Smells and Bells?  Personal choice?

If I could be a traditionalist during the week, I would be. But that avenue is not open to me. But I still want to receive Our Lord every day, so I go to the NO, albeit the most reverent one possible.
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Domine non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea
NonSumDignus

Posts: 513



« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 03:20:PM »

Its not the abuses of the NO which is the main plm. Its the NO. To only see it as the abuses and not the bastard prod mass it is, means your a neotard (neocath) or libtard and I suppose a motard. (Modernist) not a trad.
Sip


I fail to see how it is a prod Mass. The only substantive difference between the NO and the TLM is the Offertory (assuming the Roman Canon is used), which ancient-medieval TLMs lacked anyway (in the Middle Ages, the Secrets were the only part of what later evolved into the Offertory).
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Domine non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea
devotedknuckles
Of course this land is dangerous! All of the animals Are capably murderous

Personality type: MisfitTrad
Posts: 9,345



« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 03:58:PM »

Shall we start a thread to compare paragraph to paragraph the GIRM and the TLM?
The theology of the NO is prod!
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ggreg

Posts: 3,928



« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 04:16:PM »

Wouldn't you say that this is the exception rather than the rule?

If you walk into an average US Catholic Church today, Australian, French, Italian, Spanish, Irish, African, Chinese Patriotic are they going to be as solidly Orthodox?

If not, then why be a Traditionalist on Sundays?  Smells and Bells?  Personal choice?

If I could be a traditionalist during the week, I would be. But that avenue is not open to me. But I still want to receive Our Lord every day, so I go to the NO, albeit the most reverent one possible.

Why?Huh?

What is wrong with the new mass you go to?  The way you described it above it sounds just perfect.

Why rock the boat?
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Lee Timmer

Personality type: Melancholic
Posts: 86


I'll help the helpless, not the clueless.


« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 04:39:PM »

Man, Wholly...if I didn't know better, I'd swear you're dense. You obviously didn't notice the quotation marks around "Mass" in my post. I wasn't defending the protty service in any way; quite the opposite. My point is, Holy Mother Church cannot produce an impious rite and impose it upon the faithful. Yet that appears to be just what happened. So if Mother Church can't give us poison, yet the protty service is poisonous...well, do the math. (Sorry you wasted your time with that lenghthy cut and paste.)
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glgas

Posts: 2,395


« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2009, 05:34:AM »

Shall we start a thread to compare paragraph to paragraph the GIRM and the TLM?
The theology of the NO is prod!


If you want to compare an existing apple (TLM) with a book about the apples (General Instruction of the Roman Missal), I live it to you, my mind is still in the apples to apples level.

But if you want to compare the two texts (there was on the net a side by side list) you will find that

“There is certainly a difference of emphasis, but a single fundamental identity that excludes any contradiction or antagonism between a renewed liturgy and the preceding liturgy.”
 (Pope Benedict XVI. September 12, 2008)
http://www.latinmassjax.org/rees%20talk.htm

 
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devotedknuckles
Of course this land is dangerous! All of the animals Are capably murderous

Personality type: MisfitTrad
Posts: 9,345



« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2009, 05:39:AM »

Well then gagas let's do it.
If u believe the No is catholic and not prod in its theology ie a supper gathering rather then a sacrifice then so be it.
But ill take the word of ABL and my director over u anyday
Sip
By all means when I'm at a pc ill do it. On this bb I'm at a tactical disadvantage due to the mode of communication. I have 3 solid books comparing the two we will go tthrough.
Sip
Patience my friend and u will get what u ask
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"I do not like this word "bomb." It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding."
- French ambassador to New Zealand Jacques le Blanc, regarding press coverage of France's nuclear weapons tests in the Pacific

http://www.martinjetpack.com/

http://www.mugshotmuseum.com/
SIP

I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink.
- Admiral William Halsey
WhollyRoaminCatholic
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2009, 07:26:AM »

Man, Wholly...if I didn't know better, I'd swear you're dense. You obviously didn't notice the quotation marks around "Mass" in my post. I wasn't defending the protty service in any way; quite the opposite. My point is, Holy Mother Church cannot produce an impious rite and impose it upon the faithful. Yet that appears to be just what happened. So if Mother Church can't give us poison, yet the protty service is poisonous...well, do the math. (Sorry you wasted your time with that lenghthy cut and paste.)

I certainly may be dense.  But why put "Mass" in quotation marks?  Do you assert that the Novus Ordo is not a Mass at all?  Because then you're basically saying that the pope ain't Catholic, at which point you don't have to worry about the Council of Trent as a modern dilemma at all.
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devotedknuckles
Of course this land is dangerous! All of the animals Are capably murderous

Personality type: MisfitTrad
Posts: 9,345



« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2009, 07:39:AM »

The NO is a mass
Just not a catholic mass.
Sip
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"I do not like this word "bomb." It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding."
- French ambassador to New Zealand Jacques le Blanc, regarding press coverage of France's nuclear weapons tests in the Pacific

http://www.martinjetpack.com/

http://www.mugshotmuseum.com/
SIP

I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink.
- Admiral William Halsey
moneil

Gender: Male
Posts: 603



« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2009, 10:15:AM »

Quote


Then what about canons 8 and 9 of Session XXII?

Some points of information:

Quote
Quote
"If anyone says that masses in which the priest alone communicates sacramentally are illicit and are therefore to be abrogated, let him be anathema."


Weren't some priests told not to celebrate Mass alone for some time? You can't have a "communal meal" without other people present...

While there has been an emphasis on greater (and more visible, if you will) participation of the congregation in the OF Mass, I am not aware of any prohibition of a priest celebrating the Mass alone.  When I was a parish business administrator (1999 - 2003) I several times made arrangements for a visiting priest to say Mass for himself (and by himself) at the church.  That I didn't need to arrange for an altar server, or make calls to have someone else attend surprised me, because of my pre VII experiences.  Where I grew up, if nobody had arrived for a daily Mass (I'm thinking of the 5:30 am - 6:30 am time frame especially - I'm thinking a carry over from when people fasted from midnight and there were many early morning Masses to facilitate people receiving Holy Communion) - the priest would not start Mass until he got on the phone and roused up at least one other person to be there.  I have been under the impression that there was a pre VII prohibition against a priest saying Mass by himself, without at least one other (i.e., an altar server), but I really don't know, and I would think the rubrics made provision for special circumstances (i.e., a desert hermit, a traveling priest, etc.).

Also, the citation from Trent doesn't really comment on a priest celebrating Mass alone, it comments on the priest alone communicating sacramentally, which could be done in the presence of a large congregation.  Pope St. Pius X emphasised the importance and value of frequent reception of communion by the faithful (they being properly disposed, of course), in many writings.  Pope Venerable Pius XII, in 1953, revised the pre communion fasting regulations from a total fast from midnight, including water, to a fast of 3 hours from solid food and alcohol and 1 hour from non-alcoholic beverages, with water being permitted any time.  While this was initially in response to the allowance of evening Masses (i.e., a Mass after noon, which had previously been prohibitied), it's application was made universal by the Holy Father, certainly in part to encourage more frequent communion by the faithful.  I don't beleive a proper understanding and application of the rubrics and theology of the 1970 missal contradict Trent any more than the initiatives of Pius X and Pius XII to encourage more frequent communion by the congregation.

Quote
Quote
"If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only; or that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice because it is contrary to the institution of Christ, let him be anathema."

Were not some Catholics led to believe, even at times by bishops, that the Latin Mass had been abrogated, and that only the new vernacular Mass was allowed? Moreover, the words of consecration were said in a loud tone after the promulgation of the Missal of Pope Paul VI. And communion under one species became communion under both the Body and Blood of Our Lord (see Sess. XXI, can. 1 and 2).

I concurr that not just some, but almost all Catholics were let to believe, yes even at times by bishops that the 1962 missal had been abrogated and that the 1970 missal was the only authorized Liturgy to be celebrated in the parishes.  The "new" Mass (i.e., the 1970 missal, the Mass of Paul VI, the Ordinary Form, the Novus Ordo, whatever you wish ...) is not a vernacular Mass, it is, in fact, a Latin Mass, whose rubrics permit it to be said in the vernacular, using an approved translation.  The liturgical documents of VII themselves emphasised the value of latin in the liturgy of the Church, and all official liturgical books are published in latin, then, the Vatican can authorize an approved translation into a vernacular.  There is no official, authoritative Church pronouncement that mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only, and that the Church at the present time permits use of the vernacular does not contradict Trent.  It must be remembered that the liturgy was first mostly in greek (and perhaps other languages, such as aramaic, which was the language Our Lord spoke, and may have been the language used to institute the Mass.  When the liturgical language migrated from greek to latin, latin was the vernacular of the day.

In the 1970 missal of Paul VI water is still mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice.  I've never seen this not done.

Likewise, though when a Mass is celebrated according to the 1970 missal all the texts are usually spoken audible (and in large churches, without electronic sound amplification they are still mostly inaudible to the congregation), Trent doesn't say they have to be inaudible, just that it is wrong to say they can't be.

As to Holy Communion under both species - Trent simply reaffirms the teaching of the Church that one receives the fullness of the sacrament by receiving under one species only (either the Host or the Chalice).  At was at that time the liturgical discipline of the Church that the faithfull receive only the host, a discipline challanged by protestants, which is why Trent addressed the issue I presume.  In earlier times in tradition Communion was administered generally under both forms, with the faithful having the privilage of dispensing with the cup.  That is, until Pope Gelasius (492 - 496), required that Holy Communion be received under both species, to combat the Manichean herasey.  That regulation remained in effect until the Council of Constance in 1414, a period of over 900 years.  The missal of 1970 returns to the more ancient tradition of allowing communion to be administered under both forms (but it is not required that the chalice be administered to the lay faithful, and often is not), and the faithful have the privilage of dispensing with the cup (in my observation about 40% of communicants at Sunday Mass do so).  Whether that is a good or bad thing is another topic, but it in no way contradicts what Trent said, and the Church continues to teach that one receives the fullness of the sacrament under either species alone.
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ggreg

Posts: 3,928



« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2009, 01:27:AM »



Tradition in Action is a joke. Many of those photos are misleading.

I'm talking about the remainder of the photos that are not misleading then.  For example, the ones of the Vicar of CHRIST at Assisi 1 and 2. Or the one of the current pontiff giving communion to a protestant.
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Stubborn

Gender: Male
Posts: 562



« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2009, 05:09:PM »

Based on the following anathema of the Council of Trent,.

      “If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the service of piety: let him be anathema.”

     But most of us here would agree that the New Mass is one huge incentive to impiety.  NO priests and NO churches all around the world are hugely impious as are many of the congregation directly as a result of the novus ordo and the changes made after V2.

So are we anathema for calling it like we see it?

No, we're not anathema for calling it like it is. The "celebration of the Mass" that Trent is speaking of is the TLM, not today's NO.

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It is the Mass that matters.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Better to smoke here than in the hereafter.
ggreg

Posts: 3,928



« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2009, 05:23:AM »

But in that case stubborn we have a dilemna.  Because the NO is the overwhelming version used in the Catholic world.  The last 5 Popes have said it every mass they've said, and for at least 30 years the TLM was de-facto abrogated regardess of what B16 said.  In effect it was banned with very few exceptions.

While the bishops at the time of Trent could not have been expected to know the future, the Holy Ghost most certainly would have known it.  So why the Canon if the Holy Ghost knew that one day there would be a rite of mass, vestments and carryings on that would lead to scandal and impiety and a great loss of faith?


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Stubborn

Gender: Male
Posts: 562



« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2009, 04:39:PM »

But in that case stubborn we have a dilemna.  Because the NO is the overwhelming version used in the Catholic world.  The last 5 Popes have said it every mass they've said, and for at least 30 years the TLM was de-facto abrogated regardess of what B16 said.  In effect it was banned with very few exceptions.

Absolutely correct.


While the bishops at the time of Trent could not have been expected to know the future, the Holy Ghost most certainly would have known it.  So why the Canon if the Holy Ghost knew that one day there would be a rite of mass, vestments and carryings on that would lead to scandal and impiety and a great loss of faith?

Great observation, but misdirected IMO.

The Holy Ghost certainly knew that in the future, the TLM, in It's "ceremonies, vestments and outward signs", that it, (the TLM) would be called old fashioned, be mocked, banned, abrogated, slandered, replaced etc. - and it was. The anathema of Trent falls upon those guilty of doing what I just mentioned. But that warning is a proclamation so as to preserve the TLM so that it (the TLM) never changes or gets replaced under any pretenses.

The anathema of Trent in no way applies to what is and has obviously proven a disaster known as the New Rite.

IOW, had V2 adhered to the canon you quoted, - as they should have -  there would have never been a New Rite.

 
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It is the Mass that matters.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Better to smoke here than in the hereafter.
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