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Author Topic: Why create?  (Read 1229 times)
Walty
There's always a siren singing you to shipwreck.

Gender: Male
Personality type: Melancholic-Phlegmatic
Posts: 5,048



« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2009, 09:17:AM »

An aspect of the discussion touches on whether God creates out of a 'necessity' or a free choice. I think it is the latter that is proper in Christian theology.

However, there is a distinction between free will and making a choice. In the Pure Perfection, there is free will but no necessity for choice, because it is absolute. Choice involves a multiplicity of the more or less. In this respect, by saying that God creates out of His Absolute Goodness is to mean He creates freely with no necessity to make a choice. 

Well, the problem is that we are stuck down here with all these very inadequate and human terms. 
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--------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------Lámh Dhearg Abu---------------------------

This is my hand. I can turn it. The blood is still running in it.
The sun is still in the sky and the wind is blowing.
 And I... I, Antonius Block, play chess with Death.
DesperatelySeeking

Posts: 1,181



« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2009, 09:22:AM »

You can't isolate God the Father from the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are all God, and always were. The "heresy" referred to must have something to do with seperating the trinity, I'm guessing. There's no reason to ask why God created, unless you place God the Father (like some pre-existing great mind/ will/ whatever) before God the Son. That's where heresies start, and why John started his gospel the way he did.   

No, the heresy referred to relates to God's free will.  God chose to create.  He could have chosen NOT to create.  Creation was a positive and deliberate act, not an involuntary act, on the part of God.

The idea that the Universe merely flowed out from God as a result of His nature is the heresy, because it denies, or at least does not acknowledge His free will.
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iggyting

Posts: 243


« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2009, 09:03:PM »


Walty says: "Well, the problem is that we are stuck down here with all these very inadequate and human terms."

I agree fully. But take heart that in Jesus Christ we have an image of the Father. I suppose that is why man uses his rational faculty to 'see the face of God'.
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none
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 369



« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2009, 10:03:PM »

I hope I'm understandable.

No one here is denying that God is free. Free,that is, in that nothing can change Him or make Him change. (Or make Him do or undo anything).

However, He is not free to be what He is not, and He is not free to not be what He is. ( am happy to submit that statement to any knowledgeable and experienced scholastic theologian, and be confident that no error will be found).
God is eternal and unchangeable.


This  'freedom of choice" business implies a "before and after" i.e. Examine the alternatives then make a decision.
But God is not "in" time. Everything (for God) just IS. And always has been and always will be.

I, therefore, suggest that some of the difficulties being experienced in this little discussion are the result of the difficulty of comprehending That God is not confined by any of the restraints of time and space that  we are.
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Avus

Posts: 178


« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2009, 10:56:AM »

Avus,
I'm not surprised that your head hurts.
Watch this space.
Presently, there is no good reason to believe that there are other worlds "out there".

Apparently the Vatican disagrees...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6536400/The-Vatican-joins-the-search-for-alien-life.html

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding a conference on astrobiology, the study of life beyond Earth, with scientists and religious leaders gathering in Rome this week.

For centuries, theologians have argued over what the existence of life elsewhere in the universe would mean for the Church: at least since Giordano Bruno, an Italian monk, was put to death by the Inquisition in 1600 for claiming that other worlds exist.

Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.

Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?

However, just as the Church eventually made accommodations after Copernicus and Galileo showed that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, and when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin's theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings.

Father Jose Funes, a Jesuit astronomer at the Vatican Observatory and one of the organisers of the conference, said: "As a multiplicity of creatures exists on Earth, so there could be other beings, also intelligent, created by God.

"This does not conflict with our faith, because we cannot put limits on the creative freedom of God."

Not everyone agrees. Paul Davies, a theoretical physicist and author of The Goldilocks Enigma, told The Washington Post that the threat to Christianity is "being downplayed" by Church leaders. He said: "I think the discovery of a second genesis would be of enormous spiritual significance.

"The real threat would come from the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence, because if there are beings elsewhere in the universe, then Christians, they're in this horrible bind.

"They believe that God became incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ in order to save humankind, not dolphins or chimpanzees or little green men on other planets."

The Academy conference will include presentations from scientists – by no means all of them Christians – on the discovery of planets outside our solar system, the geological record of early life on Earth, how life might have started on Earth, and whether “alien” life of a different biochemistry to our own might exist here without our knowing, among many other things.


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Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 369



« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2009, 03:00:PM »

Phew!
Any bunch of "experts" that can accept the truth of Darwin's "theory" could be relied on to believe anything.

Darwinism is a preposterous, absurd and ridiculous superstition. It contradicts all relevant principles of philosophy and mathematics and known laws of science. Furthermore there's not a shred of evidence to support it  that hasn't been fabricated or maliciously misinterpreted.
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iggyting

Posts: 243


« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2009, 08:00:PM »

Just an intriguing (not meant to be heretical) thought : What if Genesis encompasses the creation of the multiverse? And, the Fall involves that of the man-being alone, the lowest of all 'sons of God' in this multiverse, whose redemption is awaited by all?
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none
Oldavid

Gender: Male
Posts: 369



« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2009, 10:56:PM »

Righto Iggy, fair enough.

If one should say that God couldn't create multiverses he would be (at best )  quite ignorant of what God is.
However, there is nothing known to us at present to indicate that He did. Furthermore, it was said (by some authority that I respected enough to remember the statement (perhaps it was The Scholar or scripture or both) that Adam's sin corrupted, or compromised or otherwise caused some lessening of the original perfection of all of creation.
To me that would imply that if there were some other beings "out there" who,perhaps, didn't fall as we did (do) would be being unfairly dealt with. I can't imagine that being in concert with God's perfect justice. But He's clever enough to get around the problem if He wants to. But the main thing, as far as we're concerned, is that there's no reason to think that He needs to.
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