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Author Topic: Praying the Rosary During the N.O.  (Read 2457 times)
AlanF

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Posts: 512



« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2009, 01:42:PM »

Now, there are problems for many protestants in the Canon, like invoking the saints (albeit most of the made optional in the NO Canon) and remembering the dead, but there are protestants who accept those things, Lutherans for instance. But if they don't like that, as INPEFESS also said, they have three other "eucharistic prayers" to chose from.


ALL of the Canons of the Missal of 1969 have a commoration of the faithful departed.

Eucharistic Prayers II and III have an optional one only for Masses for the dead. Eucharistic Prayer IV says "Remember those who have died in the peace of Christ and all the dead whose faith is known to you," which on second thoughts, doesn't seem that hard for the protestant to say. The invokation of the saints is gone. And all of them, without any kind of traditional offertory, can be understood figuratively by a protestant.


My response was predicated on your statement that But if they don't like that, as INPEFESS also said, they have three other "eucharistic prayers" to chose from.
 
, which, to my reading of the sentence, would seem to indicate that the other three Eucharistic Prayers, or Canons of the Mass, (in the Ordinary Form, or Novus Ordo, if one prefers) do not have a commemoration  of the dead, which is simply not true.

I can find nothing in the rubrics to indicate that the commemoration of the dead is optional in Eucharistic Prayers II and III (Ordinary Form) II or III (ref. The General Instruction of The Roman Missal http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml , Chapter II, Section IIIC, 9g)
Your citation of the commemoration of the dead from Eucharistic Prayer IV is incomplete.  It continues in the very next sentence with Father, in your mercy grant also to us, your children, to enter into our heavenly inheritance in the company of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and your apostles and saints .  Most evangelical I know would defiantly choke on that.
I am certainly not arguing in favor of the Ordinary Form / Novus Ordo, which would be against the spirit of Fish Eaters, and offensive to the sensibility of most here.  However, when discussing the Liturgy it is important, I believe, to discuss it in truth, and the truth is that every proper celebration of the Mass in the Ordinary From does indeed commemorate the faithful departed.


I'm going by what it says in my Novus Ordo hand missal (it was a gift, before anyone asks), now that I look more closely there is a very small mention of the dead, "Welcome into your kingdom our departed brothers and sisters, and all who have left this world in your friendship," in Eucharistic Prayer III, and in EP II, I still can't find anything except for the optional add-on for Masses for the dead; it's subheaded "In Masses for the Dead the following may be added" then has the commemoration of the dead.

As for that section in Eucharistic Prayer IV, firstly, my quotation was complete, my NO hand missal put's you quotation under another subheading. And secondly, are you sure that would choke the protestants? It's not invoking the saints' intercession (like the traditional Canon does) but acknowledging that they are/will be in Heaven. I know the Anglicans and the Lutherans are fine with that, I believe that's the sort of protestantism we're talkign about really, Evangelicalism is protestantism on steroids, I don't think Bugnini would have gotten away with making the Mass acceptable to evangelicals. The saints are still there in most of the Eucharistic Prayers, but their intercession is often removed and mention of them is greatly reduced.


Another thing, I didn't mean to say there's no commemoration of the dead in the other "eucharistic prayers," I think what I was going to write before I forgot it and typed that was "As INPEFESS also said, it would have been too controversial to completely change the canon so they added three others in which to more water it down."
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34 Fishies.
The_Harlequin_King
The Abbot of Unreason

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Discerning my vocation to the cardinalate


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« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2009, 01:43:PM »

Quote
I think what I was going to write before I forgot it and typed that was "As INPEFESS also said, it would have been too controversial to completely change the canon so they added three others in which to more water it down."

Actually, I thought it was myself who said that.
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Medievalism: no school like the old school's old school's old school's old school.

petrelton

Posts: 378


« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2009, 02:49:PM »

Solid post, petrelton. You touched on many good points.
Thanks Credo
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Here are the words of Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) regarding the New Mass:

The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.
(Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104)
Scipio_a
Don't forget your Rosaries for crusade 3

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Personality type: balanced
Posts: 3,684


ISLAM DELENDA EST


« Reply #108 on: November 17, 2009, 03:19:PM »

LOL...the triumvirate of irrationality....Who's the third member?


The red herring of "participation" is the loudest cry of those who have no understanding of what the Mass is...

The whole notion was shot down when the Pope declared the people should read their missals and offer the prayer of the Mass along with the priest, since it is the greatest prayer the Church has....clapping hands, holing the host with the fingers you just picked your nose with, and singing Mike row the Boat Ashore is in no way participation...in fact it is even worse than folk just praying some simple prayers and letting their kids squirm on the pews...offering their tolerance up as a sacrifice.


Vatican Poo did not try to right a wrong...it tried and was successful at wronging a right.


Pull out your Little Red Missal...and pray the Mass of All Time if you feel you can go to an NO but hate it...if you don't hate it and think it's OK...I don't see a reason to care what you do during the service...it's all allowed anyway.
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AlanF

Gender: Male
Posts: 512



« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2009, 10:00:AM »

Quote
I think what I was going to write before I forgot it and typed that was "As INPEFESS also said, it would have been too controversial to completely change the canon so they added three others in which to more water it down."

Actually, I thought it was myself who said that.

 Huh?
I can't actually find it anywhere in this tread now.
My apologies to thee if that was from you.
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veritatem_dilexisti
Cheese-Eating Surrender Trad

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Posts: 1,174


Sip sip


« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2009, 10:26:AM »

I submit to you the banishment of Our Lady from the foot of the cross is not sitting well with her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned in the Mass, in the penitential rite and in the prayers at the altar. No one is banishing her.

The last several NO Masses I have been to have not had any "penitential rite." Unless you call "Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy" as a penitential rite.

Is attending the NO not a penitential rite in itself?
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