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Author Topic: Mary Mother of Christ and Elizabeth ,were they cousins?  (Read 343 times)
ORAPROME
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Posts: 3


« on: December 23, 2009, 01:25:PM »

Is there a factual basis for saying as it does in Luke,that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins?Is there any Spiritual or theological  significance to whether they were or not?The homilist at a recent  Mass said that it was less than certain that they were.He did not say what the significance of there relationship was.
  My wonder was why even bring it up at all.Did not the angel say to Mary that your cousin too is expecting a child?Is this the introduction of the element of doubt about what one might be able to believe about scripture?
 Any Scripture scholars out there who might be able to shed some light?
  God Bless
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Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES

Posts: 11,213



« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 04:31:PM »

Is there a factual basis for saying as it does in Luke,that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins?Is there any Spiritual or theological  significance to whether they were or not?The homilist at a recent  Mass said that it was less than certain that they were.He did not say what the significance of there relationship was.
  My wonder was why even bring it up at all.Did not the angel say to Mary that your cousin too is expecting a child?Is this the introduction of the element of doubt about what one might be able to believe about scripture?
 Any Scripture scholars out there who might be able to shed some light?
  God Bless

Yes, they were cousins. You know why? "Cousin" just means "related". Cousin in English is a very vague term. In Aramaic, Hebrew and other Semitic languages, there was no such word and they used "brother" or "sister". This applied to all close relatives, which leads to protestants making the most outrageous claims. Gabriel most likely did not say "cousin" because Aramaic and Hebrew have no such words. I imagine if Gabriel spoke a natural language, it would have said "sister" or "relative", depending on whatever was more common. Also, it is possible for such terms to be used for close friends (it is used a lot in the Bible that way), but I imagine Mary and Elizabeth were related in some fashion, given the closeness of them.

Look up the English word "cousin"; you'll see it is an extremely vague term.

I do not understand why anyone would protest that. The use of "cousin" or "brother" in scripture is meaningless for precise relationships. That is why genealogies are given; that is how relations were tracked. To say that it is a false statement in Luke would be to say that Mary and Elizabeth were not related at all or not friends at all. The word "cousin" is that vague.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 04:33:PM by Rosarium » Logged

ORAPROME
New Here

Posts: 3


« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 08:56:PM »

Thank you Rosarium for your comments.They were very helpful.My difficulty in all this relates to my Faith experiences in this diocese.The homilists comments re the uncertainty about the relationship between the two very holy women had me wondering whether he was commenting on the veracity of scripture .
 He did not elaborate on what he had said.It left me wondering about the point of it.I bring to my encounters with a lot of the clergy here including the Bishop himself a great lack of confidence in their advice on moral matters.They appear to my view to have a too laid back or overly pastoral approach to the moral aspect of things.
 I must also admit the man in this question may not have expressed himself as accurately as I would have liked.But my skepticism brings me down on the side of suspecting him to be somewhat shallow in the faith.
  Once again thanks
   God Bless
   OPM 
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Avus

Posts: 178


« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 08:37:AM »

I recall reading somewhere that the original word used in Aramaic and Greek (and perhaps Hebrew?) meant "kinswoman" rather than "cousin".
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Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES

Posts: 11,213



« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 08:40:AM »

I recall reading somewhere that the original word used in Aramaic and Greek (and perhaps Hebrew?) meant "kinswoman" rather than "cousin".

That is what "Cousin" means (if feminine).

Cousin has no specific meaning in English. It is commonly used now to mean "child of an aunt or uncle", but its meaning is just "relative": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cousin
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aquinas138

Posts: 900


« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 02:38:PM »

The Syriac word used in the Peshitto is ʾaḥyōnṯô (or East Syriac ʾaḥyānṯâ), which just means "kinswoman."  This is just like the Greek συγγενίς and the Vulgate cognata, both of which mean "kinswoman, relative."  In Aramaic or Hebrew, if you wanted to use "cousin" in the modern American sense, you would say "son/daughter of my uncle/aunt."  Thus for example in Leviticus 25:49, "his cousin" is in Hebrew ben-dodô ("son of his (paternal) uncle"), which is properly rendered in the Vulgate as patruelis and in the Septuagint as υἱὸς ἀδελφοῦ πατρὸς ("son of the brother of the father").
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