European court: No crucifixes in Italian schools

[Texican]

European court: No crucifixes in Italian schools
25 mins ago

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091103/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_religious_symbols_2

STRASBOURG, France – Europe's court of human rights ruled Tuesday the display of crucifixes in Italian public schools violates religious and education freedoms under the continent's rights convention.

The ruling, which could force a Europe-wide review of the use of religious symbols in government-run schools, rejected arguments by Italy's government that the crucifix was a national symbol of culture, history and identity, tolerance and secularism.

A seven-judge panel sided with a complaint filed by Soile Lautsi, a parent of two children, who claimed public schools in her northern Italian town eight years ago refused to remove the Roman Catholic symbols from classrooms.

The ruling awarded euro5,000 ($7,390) in damages to Lautsi, which the Italian government will pay her. The court, however, did not order Italian authorities to remove the crucifixes and the ruling can still be appealed to the European Court of Human Rights' Grand Chamber of 17 judges.

Lautsi says the crucifix violates the secular principles the public schools are supposed to uphold and the right to offer her children a secular education. Crucifixes are very common in Italian public schools.

"The presence of the crucifix ... could easily be interpreted by pupils of all ages as a religious sign and they would feel that they were being educated in a school environment bearing the stamp of a given religion," the court said in a statement on the case, adding the presence of such symbols could be "disturbing for pupils who practiced other religions or were atheists."

The court added that secular, state-run schools must "observe confessional neutrality in the context of public education," where attendance is compulsory.

It further rejected Italian legal arguments that the crucifix was somehow a symbol that promoted pluralism.

Lautsi filed her case with the Strasbourg-based court in July 2006 after Italy's Constitutional Court dismissed her complaint. Her efforts to rid public schools of religious symbols in a country that is predominantly Roman Catholic has not been welcomed.

In Rome, Nicola Lettieri, who represented Italy in the case, said the government would appeal, according to the ANSA news agency.

Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini protested the decision, saying the crucifix is a "symbol of our tradition."

"In our country nobody wants to impose the Catholic religion, let alone with a crucifix," Gelmini said. But she added that "it is not by eliminating the traditions of individual countries that a united Europe is built."

Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said he wanted to see the ruling and the reasons behind it before commenting.

and so it continues...

[LRThunder]

And there are those in this country trying to do the same.  At least our Supreme Court is the final court in this country...for now.

[WhollyRoaminCatholic]

Everyone who is surprised, raise your hand.

[maldon]

The womn is quite correct in her interpretation. That is the state that Italians have chosen. That is the Europe the Italians have chosen. The schools will more and more express the desires and choices of the citizens they serve, just as we see it happening in North America as well.

Some Italians will be upset, just as some North Americans get upset when the same kind of thing happens here. But these same "upset" Italians and North Americans will forget these feelings when the time comes for elections, for referendums on European powers and incorporation, and for all of the other large decisions which seem removed from the day to day decor of the classroom, but which are not. We live in democracies, corrupt ones perhaps, but democracies no less. We get what we pay for.

[Magdalene]

We can expect more of this.  It boggles the mind how the atheistic 'european court' can dictate to classrooms in Italy.  Yet our own courts might do this certainly. And as we lose what sovereignty we have, we also will be dictated to by a demonic order.

[devotedknuckles]

Z germans choose the nazis too
So what's this women mean?

[Cambrensis]

Crucifix ruling sparks uproar in Italy


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/crucifix-ruling-sparks-uproar-in-italy/article1349646/

... Italy's powerful bishops' conference said the ruling “evokes sadness and bewilderment.”

Members of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government bristled, weighing in with words such as “shameful,” “offensive,” “absurd,” “unacceptable,” and “pagan.” But condemnation crossed party lines. Paola Binetti, a Catholic in the opposition Democratic Party, the successor of what was once the West's largest communist party, said: “In Italy, the crucifix is a specific sign of our tradition.”

...  Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini said crucifixes on the walls of tens of thousands of classrooms “does not mean adherence to Catholicism” but are a symbol of Italy's heritage.

“The history of Italy is marked by symbols and if we erase symbols we erase part of ourselves,” Ms. Gelmini said.

...

Pierferdinando Casini of the opposition Union of Christian Democrats party said the ruling showed that European institutions were “spineless,” noting the failure to mention the continent's Christian roots in Europe's constitution.

Mario Baccini, a senator in Mr. Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, said the court had “gone adrift in paganism.”

Two Italian laws dating from the 1920s, when the Fascists were in power, state that schools must display crucifixes. Alessandra Mussolini, granddaughter of Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini, said such rulings were leading to “a Europe without an identity.”

Only a handful of politicians defended the court, including some members of the Democratic Party, as well as members of the communist party and atheist groups.

[Texican]

Interesting that it seems like most people opposing this, are doing so because of "tradition," and not because of Catholicism.

[WhollyRoaminCatholic]

"Tradition" holds more weight in the court of secular opinion than "Catholicism". It's probably just for rhetorical position.

[libby]

how about they just display them for the sake of the Italian Masters?

 

[glgas]

As far as I know in the US no crucifix can be displayed in public areas instead of schools. Furthermore not even a Bethlehem at Christmas time. Menora yes, Christian symbols no.

The case for Europe was last two years ago, when the proposal to declare that Europe has Christian roots, was voted down.

The undemocratic tactics over the voting is, that the desired issue is put to vote again and again, until those who has the power get what they want.  This happened recently in Ireland.  These are Apocalyptic times, the evil usurps the power.

[Cambrensis]

Interesting that it seems like most people opposing this, are doing so because of "tradition," and not because of Catholicism.

Yes.  Defending Catholicism purely on the grounds of cultural tradition is a double-edged sword -- a pagan could attack Catholicism for the same reason.  Perhaps that'll be the European Union's next step -- arraigning the Church for ethnically cleansing the traditional religions of the indigenous peoples of Europe!

What's weird though is that, according to the European Court of Human Rights' press release, the Italian legal authorities originally threw out the woman's complaint on the grounds that:

the crucifix was both the symbol of Italian history and culture, and consequently of Italian identity, and the symbol of the principles of equality, liberty and tolerance, as well as of the State’s secularism. ... [T]he cross had become one of the secular values of the Italian Constitution and represented the values of civil life.

So they weren't even trying to defend the Crucifix on the grounds that it represented Italy's traditional Christian culture, but that it was (somehow) a symbol of the Italian state's more recent tradition of secularism and pluralism.      You can't blame the EU for being unimpressed with that defence!

[TradCathYouth]

In any case, I hope the Italians give the knuckleheads of the court a good thrashing.

[RRR]

Well... with EWTN "Catholic" Theologians arguing against Catholic Doctrine...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZ2ybiDlaw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZ2ybiDlaw</a>

... nothing surprises me anymore.

The state should not be making theological decisions by putting up crucifixes in public schools. The state is incompetent in making those judgments, because a state that could put up crucifixes in public schools, is a state that could put up statues of Mohamed, Oprah Winfrey, or Charles III in those same public schools. The guys who can't fix the potholes (people in charge of the state), should not be meddling in religion. This is important to recognize because it puts the state in it proper place. The state is important in certain functions, but it does not have the capacity to make the judgment that Christ died on the Cross for our sins.

Right comrades? 

[Baskerville]

Thats what happens when you give up your national sovereignty dumb eurotrash.