Roma Girl ,11, gives birth on wedding day

[Herr_Mannelig]

Rosarium,

This is why it is sometimes tedious to talk with you.  First, the original claim is that it is "un-PC to call them Gypsies."  Yes, there is a PC movement to eliminate the term Gypsy and you're joining it.  We, in America, call them Gypsies and that's just the way it is.  The Germans don't call their country "Germany," they call it "Deutschland."  Should the Germans be pissed off that our language has its own name for them and for their language?  No.  And they can call themselves "Roma" all they want, it doesn't make "Gypsy" wrong.  We call the Sioux "Sioux"; they prefer Lakota.  But I bet their name for the Chippewa isn't the name the Chippewa have for themselves.  Etc., etc.  What do the Gypsies call non-Gypsies, by the way?  The PC folks don't like "Gypsy" because it conjures up negative images.  Well, yeah, that's understandable. 

This is why it is so tedious to talk to people like you.

Look at what was originally stated.

I never said anything about calling them "Gypsies" being politically correct or not only that it was wrong.

EDIT: This was all started when someone thought it was "Romanian", when it wasn't. The use of "Roma(ani)" is correct and not politically correct. To use Roma over Gypsy is not being politically correct; it is being correct. The use of Gypsy is understood, and perhaps based on illogical premises, but it is understood. I have used it too; that is not the issue and never was.

It was as foolish as someone saying that "Deutschland" is a PC term for Germany.

Verstehen?

Next, yes, to massacre folks is worse than to be beggars and thieves.  But you tack on this PC caveat, "are worse than the crimes the Romani are thought to commit."  There's no "are thought" about it.  I've been to Rome and I've seen them.  It's disgusting.  They're a drain on society.  We're Catholics, not social Darwinists, so of course what Hitler did to them is awful.  But they've never helped themselves either.  They are frequently unwelcome guests and that ticks people off.

Are Catholics supposed to hate?

And they are often Catholic as well.

If you want, I could clarify more:

* I do not think certain behavior are to be acceptable in a society
* I do not think that "culture" is an excuse, but it should be taken into account
* I think education is important.

People can call them Gypsies if they want, because it seems to be understood, but it is silly to think Roma is a PC term for them.

[i.p.i.]

i was reading some of the comments over at the newspaper sites and the girl was condemned as 'dirty' and 'disgusting,' as if she was the only 11 year-old ever to have
a baby.  where have these people been, hiding their heads in the sand?  i knew a
12 year-old who had a baby back in 1959, and she didn't fit any stereotypes because she was white, with educated, well-off parents.

finally i read a comment from an African who pointed out that at least this girl chose to have her baby, and that 10 year-olds get pregnant and have abortions in Europe and the UK.  that's true in the US, too, because kids are reaching puberty earlier than they used to.  it's not ideal to be such a young mother but abortion is never right.  parents need to tell their kids the facts of life early on so they don't operate on hormones as this girl did.  if kids don't know something is wrong, and has consequences, and it feels good, they're going to do it.
 
i hope the judge decides to order the young husband to work to support his wife and
baby daughter, and warns him he will go to prison if he doesn't live up to his
responsibilities.  his young wife looks much older than she is and she says she misled him into thinking she was older because she wanted him to be her boyfriend.

he had a job so it seems he's a Rom who wants to go straight, which would be good.  in general the Roma believe that stealing is their niche in society, that they are entitled to steal.  they beg, too, and can be aggressive when begging. 

rosarium, this is no rumour.  i've experienced the aggressive begging and also seen them pick pockets, even watched a network of pickpockets at work once, can tell you about the ways they operate.  i don't hate them but know you have to watch out for them in Europe just like you have to watch out for the Irish Travelers in the US.  the Travelers' kids also marry young, and they are all scam artists, but are not related to the Roma.  they con old people, which is really low.  i don't know if Roma are into fraud like that.

[Herr_Mannelig]

rosarium, this is no rumour.  i've experienced the aggressive begging and also seen them pick pockets, even watched a network of pickpockets at work once, can tell you about the ways they operate.  i don't hate them but know you have to watch out for them in Europe just like you have to watch out for the Irish Travelers in the US.  the Travelers' kids also marry young, and they are all scam artists, but are not related to the Roma.  they con old people, which is really low.  i don't know if Roma are into fraud like that.

Such behavior is very undesirable.

[i.p.i.]

rats, my formatting is messed up.  sorry.  it looked fine in the preview.

also, Rosarium, the Roma are indeed Catholic but it's usually pretty nominal Catholicism.  that's true of the Irish Travelers, too; Catholic but rarely go to Mass.

and, yes, their behavior is very undesirable.  they are often physically beautiful
people and their music is beautiful, so those are positives about the Roma.

you'd probably enjoy a book called 'bury me standing.'  the author's an
anthropologist who actually lived in the homes of Romani families in Albania.  she
presents the good and the bad about them, is not prejudiced against them.

[Bonifacius]

Rosarium,

I was referring to Jovan's comment:  "Roma=Gypsie. It's 'un-PC' to call them Gypsies now!  She's a Bulgarian Roma."  You disputed this.  But Jovan was right -- PC folks are indeed trying to suppress "Gypsy" in favor of "Roma," regardless of whether Gypsy is etymologically incorrect.  Jovan did *not* deny that "Roma(ni)" is their own name for themselves.  He did not say that it was made up.  But, yes, there is a PC aspect to this, for they are trying to suppress "Gypsy" as "culturally insensitive" or something like that.   And the implicit PC argument that we should only ever call people by the terms they call themselves as opposed to our own group's name for them is fundamentally just as idiotic as saying that we should all call Germany "Deutschland."  Now, the issue is really that the word "Gypsy" conjures up all sorts of connotations.  But why shouldn't it? 

And I never said anything about hatred.  Verstehen?  I said that people tend not to like unwelcome, criminal guests.  That does not excuse genocide -- no way.  But you have to admit that there is more than mere "misunderstanding" or "mystery" here.  There is a reality of social pathology.  They also provide beautiful music that people love.  And there is the mystique.  So it's not that they're entirely unwelcome and it's not that they're innately evil or something.

[CanadianCatholic]

My father in law tells me some crazy stories about them. Even my husband remembers the trouble they would start, when he lived in Hungary.

An unknown people, who live entirely differently, who have their own language and customs will attract stories of all sorts. It is best I think to stick to facts.

What sort of trouble did your husband remember?

He remembers them sneaking into their yard and stealing things, then selling it to other neighbours. They even snuck into their house once (he lived in kind of a tiny cottage, in a small village, called Racalmas) and the gypsies stoul their vacuum and sold it to a neighbour. His parents then got a dog, and it wasnt so bad.
Last winter, my father in law ws driving outside of Budapest. There was a car, pulled over on the street, with a police light blinking, the man standing outside of it was wearing a dark  jacket and tried to pull my father in law over. He wouldnt stop, as the man wasnt wearing an official police uniform. The next day, he found out that there was 2 more gypsies in that fake cop car, they pulled someone else over, stabbed the person and took his vehichle. 
My husband has his entire family in Hungary and Germany, as well as thats where hes from. They all say the same thing about Gypsies.

[Herr_Mannelig]

He remembers them sneaking into their yard and stealing things, then selling it to other neighbours. They even snuck into their house once (he lived in kind of a tiny cottage, in a small village, called Racalmas) and the gypsies stoul their vacuum and sold it to a neighbour. His parents then got a dog, and it wasnt so bad.
Last winter, my father in law ws driving outside of Budapest. There was a car, pulled over on the street, with a police light blinking, the man standing outside of it was wearing a dark  jacket and tried to pull my father in law over. He wouldnt stop, as the man wasnt wearing an official police uniform. The next day, he found out that there was 2 more gypsies in that fake cop car, they pulled someone else over, stabbed the person and took his vehichle. 
My husband has his entire family in Hungary and Germany, as well as thats where hes from. They all say the same thing about Gypsies.

Funny, I've heard this about other groups of people

Well, the one distinguishing feature in them is some sort of poverty and lower education. That seems to be the primary cause of all these problems.

[CanadianCatholic]

Gypsies are what they are. they dont pretend to be anything else. I dont see what the big deal is, calling them what they are. However, calling a Hungarian a gypsy is apparently a MAJOR insult, if they arent one.
What exactly are you trying to prove Rosarium? Gypsy is basically just their "gang" name in Europe. Here, we call them gangs. Its just another cultures form of organized crime.

[Herr_Mannelig]

Gypsies are what they are. they dont pretend to be anything else. I dont see what the big deal is, calling them what they are. However, calling a Hungarian a gypsy is apparently a MAJOR insult, if they arent one.

Calling someone what they aren't is usually an insult.

What exactly are you trying to prove Rosarium? Gypsy is basically just their "gang" name in Europe. Here, we call them gangs. Its just another cultures form of organized crime.

I have nothing to prove, but there are a few things which I had attempted to make clear:

* Roma and Romani do not mean"Romanian"
* Roma(ni) is correct and not political
* Gypsy is inaccurate, but understood
* Murder is worse than property crimes
* Catholics should follow the Church's teachings.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2aog3PuDqg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2aog3PuDqg</a>

[Bonifacius]

But Rosarium, you're also pooh-poohing the claims about Gypsy culture.  Whether you've "heard this" about other groups is irrelevant.  In the case of Gypsies it's true.  Secondly, it's a *big* insult to call a non-Gypsy Hungarian a Gypsy because of the Gypsy way of life, which in many ways quite rightly pisses off the people who have to (per the Church's teachings!) put up with them to some extent at least.  And you still blame this on poverty and education.  *They purposely refuse* education and steady jobs.  *They choose* a life of crime.  People have been trying to get them to settle down and be normal (and moral) for some time.  They don't want to.  Crime is their profession in a very great many cases.  And yet they have great music and a great mystique that in many ways renders them romantic and appealing.  No one here supports hatred or genocide.  But being rightly indignant with people who brazenly defy the standards of countries that host them is perfectly fine. 

[Herr_Mannelig]

But Rosarium, you're also pooh-poohing the claims about Gypsy culture.  Whether you've "heard this" about other groups is irrelevant. 

Well, I know this is true of those other groups, but the point is that it is not unique.

Secondly, it's a *big* insult to call a non-Gypsy Hungarian a Gypsy because of the Gypsy way of life, which in many ways quite rightly pisses off the people who have to (per the Church's teachings!) put up with them to some extent at least. 

Is being a "Gypsy" a choice? As I understand, it is a ethnic group, but it does as a term have a certain ambiguity about it, as someone was called an "ex-gypsy" earlier.

And you still blame this on poverty and education. 

No, I said it was "one distinguishing feature", which the different groups had.

*They purposely refuse* education and steady jobs.  *They choose* a life of crime.  People have been trying to get them to settle down and be normal (and moral) for some time.

Be careful with "normal". That would mean killing the child.

[jovan66102]

it's a *big* insult to call a non-Gypsy Hungarian a Gypsy

Yeah, it's like calling a Serb a 'Turk'. That can get you killed!

[i.p.i.]

But Rosarium, you're also pooh-poohing the claims about Gypsy culture.  Whether you've "heard this" about other groups is irrelevant. 

Well, I know this is true of those other groups, but the point is that it is not unique.

what is true of 'those other groups'?  and who are 'those other groups'? 

this isn't a racial issue, if that's what you think.  the Roma are dark-skinned but Travelers and Tinkers are white.  what they have in common is stealing and scamming, a love of riches, an insular culture, and being predators on those outside their culture.  all have the potential to be dangerous to you financially and many of them are not hesitant to turn to violence.

you should check out this site so you'll recognize Travelers if they come to your door and try to sell your mom a new roof or driveway, etc. 

http://www.fraudtech.bizland.com/gypsy_introduction.htm

be sure to click on the link on the left that says 'Irish Travelers' and read that page.

the site explains a lot about the various 'gypsy' groups and the controversy about the word 'gypsy'

if you ever go to Europe, you'll need to know how the Roma set up their targets to pickpocket.  they train their kids early, as the Travelers do, and young kids pick pockets and snatch purses and backpacks.     

[Tobri]

You know I was going to say something but I am becoming smart so I am just going to have no comment.