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Author Topic: Post V2 Catholic Evangelization  (Read 336 times)
franklinf

Posts: 288



« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 05:46:AM »


Quote from: franklinf
Well, I don't know if the "amazing spread" has been all that amazing. While the numbers have increased, the % has stayed flat.

In the last 100 years the number of Christians has literally risen by 6,708%. You did not read that wrong, that number of Catholics in Africa has risen in the last 100 years by 6,708%.* Anyway you parse it, that's amazing!

* Source: The Rise of Christianity in Africa: Does more churches mean more healing of the sick? - http://stanford.edu/class/humbio129s/cgi-bin/blogs/privatesector/2009/05/07/the-rise-of-christianity-in-africa-do-more-churches-mean-more-healing-of-the-sick/


Wasn't denying that the number increased. I was saying that as % of world population nothing has changed. How much is attributed simply to population growth?

Also, that statistic could be very misleading. What is the base number? From 100 to 7000 is roughly 6900%. Very insignificant. From 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 its only 50%. Percentage increases are heavily biased towards small numbers.
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lex orandi, lex credendi
CrusaderKing

Gender: Male
Personality type: choleric/sanguine mix
Posts: 810



« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 08:37:AM »


I beg to differ. Despite the heroic efforts of folk down the ages, after 2000 years "Christianity" (by which we lump in Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, JW's and Mormons) has claimed just a little over 30% of the world's population.* How much of that number owes a tip of the hat to the '62 Missal and Breviary remains to be seen.

JW's and Mormons aren't Christian, they are cults. The Protestants aren't true churches, as the current Pontiff has said. Much of Europe was re-Catholicized after the counter Reformation, when large territories that had gone over to Protestantism was reclaimed. Plus, many of the Amerindian tribes of current day Latin America were converted to Catholicism, and the Church has been decimated there since V II.



Quote from: Ockham
Keep in mind many people who attend the NO don't believe in the Real Presence, don't go to Confession

Quote
One is hard pressed to find a practicing Christian who attends the revised Mass and Office who actually doesn't believe in the Real Presence and Confession. I don't have time to go into it right now, but the surveys that traditionalists often cite to show the supposed drop in belief in these things are very misleading, and were intentionally designed to be so.

Practicing Catholics usually at a hefty percentage rate believe in the Real Presence, but few who go to the Novus Ordo go to Confession.   


Quote
For decades before Humanae Vitae Catholic priests in the United States and Europe had been advising couples to use contraception. As such, the idea that the rise of the current anti-life mentality has something to do with the Novus Ordo Missae of Paul VI is incorrect.

Go to your average Novus Ordo parish, and you'll find few families headed by couples 40 years old and under who have more than three kids. This could be in some cases due to issues like infertility, but more often it's more than likely due to the fact they are practicing contraception. Relatively few priests who say the NOM preach against contraception in their homilies.

Quote from: franklinf
Well, I don't know if the "amazing spread" has been all that amazing. While the numbers have increased, the % has stayed flat.

Quote
In the last 100 years the number of Christians has literally risen by 6,708%. You did not read that wrong, that number of Catholics in Africa has risen in the last 100 years by 6,708%.* Anyway you parse it, that's amazing!

* Source: The Rise of Christianity in Africa: Does more churches mean more healing of the sick? - http://stanford.edu/class/humbio129s/cgi-bin/blogs/privatesector/2009/05/07/the-rise-of-christianity-in-africa-do-more-churches-mean-more-healing-of-the-sick/

Funny, I was just thinking yesterday how some folk are so doom and gloom even awesome news like the rise of Christianity in the Africa and Asia is downplayed. BTW, by Asia we chiefly mean China.

And as far as post V2 evangelization, that is really nill these days.  We have been dealt with a major guilt complex, and evangelization in the post-conciliar Church is dealt with hesitantly, if not at all

See above (and for heaven's sake, think outside of the West).
[/quote]

You keep conflating the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" which is at times misleading. Catholics are Christians, Orthodox are schismatics, Protestants do not belong to true churches, so any conversion to any Protestant denomination by anyone in Africa or Asia only means they are getting an incomplete and many times false messages.

As far as thinking outside the West, you sidestep the fact the Church has lost many adherents in Latin America, and even the Philippines is having a vocations crisis.
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"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."-St. Augustine
Ockham

Posts: 65



« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 02:50:PM »

"The first study to catch the bishops' attention was commissioned by the Reverend Peter Stravinskas, a well-known Catholic apologist and editor of The Catholic Answer. In 1992, he obtained funds from the Saint Augustine Center Association and hired the Gallup Organization to conduct a national poll asking Catholics: "Which one of the following statements about Holy Communion do you think best reflects your belief?" Only 30 percent of the respondents chose the first option: "When receiving Holy Communion, you are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine" "

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_17_128/ai_79305248/


Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence
Nine in ten weekly Mass attendees (91 percent) say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist, compared to two-thirds of those who attend Mass less than weekly but at least once a month (65 percent), and four in ten of those attending Mass a few times a year or less (40 percent).  Among Catholics attending Mass at least once a month, the youngest generation of Catholics (born after 1981) has similar beliefs about the Eucharist as Pre-Vatican II Generation Catholics (born before 1943).

http://cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html


"There have been some discussions about the possibility of a personal relationship with God on this blog and others recently. Part of it was re-ignited by the recent Pew Forum Report on Religion in America that indicated that 29% of Catholics believe God is simply an "impersonal force," while 60% of self-described adult Catholics can clearly affirm that they believe in a personal God with whom they can have a relationship.

So let's look at a few numbers...
40% of adult Catholics do not believe a personal relationship with God is possible
43% of Catholics polled do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
42% of adult Catholics pray a few times a week or less
57% of adult Catholics seldom or never read Scripture outside of religious services"
http://blog.siena.org/2008/07/personal-relationship-and-real-presence.html


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"Our pilgrimage on earth cannot be exempt from trial.  We progress by means of trial.  No one knows himself except through trial, or receives a crown except after victory, or strives except against an enemy or temptations."  St. Augustine
Credo

Posts: 5,164



« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 07:13:PM »

Quote from: Ockham
I find them all the time.  Besides my ancedotal evidence you can also find independent surveys confirming the same thing.  The way we pray/worship is the way we believe.  The lack of reverence and rubics in the Novus Ordo produces a diminished belief structure in those who attend it.   The NO resembles a Lutheran service more than the UA so it's no wonder they share views on the Real Presence.   You would be hard pressed to find a UA participant who doesn't believe in transubstantiation.

I'm busy right now, but this weekend I will discuss the points points you bring up. (Also, for the fellow I was going back and forth with on the nudist thread, I will respond this weekend too.) Things are not nearly as crisp as you make them out to be. Until then, I want to reemphasize that the surveys cited by particular groups of Catholics to show how much faith in the Real Presence has dropped is very misleading, and was designed to be so by those taking the survey. Stay tuned...
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"Amazing love! How can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?"
Credo

Posts: 5,164



« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 07:15:PM »

For everyone else, I will respond this weekend too. Quite busy now, I'm afraid...
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"Amazing love! How can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?"
Vetus Ordo
Famulus Christi

Gender: Male
Personality type: Sinner
Posts: 1,609



WWW
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 08:58 AM »

I can hardly wait...
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"O MARY, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee."

"Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children. There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church." - Pius IX, Singulari Quidem.
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