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John92
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 06:07:PM » |
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I like Pope Benedict XVI so much. He's just what the doctor ordered.
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petrelton
Posts: 378
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 07:32:PM » |
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we can certainly say that the Church was far better off prior to Vatican II. as everyone probably knows, most Catholics attended Mass on Sundays and holy days. parochial schools, catholic colleges, seminaries, monasteries, and convents all thrived. a great many are now closed. after the liturgical changes, many Catholics, including priests and religious, left the Church.
everyone may not know that the Church was a major force in keeping explicit sex, violence, and profanity out of films, television, and books. the industry codes, and the laws, back then protected us from the seamy side of life, and the Church had a strong influence on the codes and laws. the culture wasn't puritan, just not obsessed with, or tolerant of, sleaze.
having an affair or getting a divorce could ruin a career for someone in public life. i can't remember anyone who admitted to being homosexual or to having had an abortion until some time after Vatican II. the only admitted atheist in the US who comes to my mind was madalyn murray o'hair, the woman who succeeded in getting morning prayers banned from public schools in 1962. (her son was so thrilled that he became a minister.)
atheism was strongly associated with communism, which the Church always fought.
of course there was sin before the conciliar changes were made. there has always been sin. but i really question whether the radical changes in the Catholic liturgy and the associated changes in Catholic attitudes contributed to the radical changes in society. it was as if the barque of Peter was cast loose from its moorings and the rest of western society followed it, drifting on a sea of filth.
We have no way of knowing whether or not the church would be any better off today without the V2 council or even without the liturical reforms. It may have been decimated by modernism, feminism, homosexuality, communism etc. anyway. In fact the same people who are criticising the council today would probably be today criticising the church for not having a council. The fact is that dissent is a problem with the heart of the man, not necessarily a problem with those things which he is dissenting against. As I heard a wise man say recently. The indefectability of the church means that the bargue of Peter will not sink even though it is driven by the storms and tempests of the world and rocked to such an extent as to cause distress to the occupants. What are you so alarmed about oh ye of little faith. All you see is the winds and the waves and fail to see the Lord sleeping in peace. The Lord will arouse himself in his good time and will silence the storm. Wait patiently for the Lord and stop getting so distressed by the outward circumstances to the extent that you worry that the barque of Peter will sink. |
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Here are the words of Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) regarding the New Mass:
The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.
(Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104)
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Nic
Knight of the Cruciform Sword
Gender: 
Personality type: ...strange
Posts: 704
In Hoc Signo Vinces.
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 05:04:AM » |
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I like Pope Benedict XVI so much. He's just what the doctor ordered.
Even though Pope Benedict is worlds better than Paul VI and John Paul II, I wouldn't make the claim that he is "just what the doctor ordered." He still does things that cause scandal in the hearts of Catholics (visiting mosques and synagogues without mentioning the need for Christ is one of them - which has become so mainstream in the modern Church that it is now viewed without being second guessed). His praising of arch-heretic Martin Luther is also appalling to say the least. He has done wonderful things like freeing up the Mass of all-time and making a push to have the SSPX regularized - but a courageous pope who stands up completely and firmly for the Faith would be exactly "what the doctor ordered." Such a pope, if he truly stood firm in the Faith, would be VERY unpopular and hated by the world (just the opposite with John Paul II, who was loved by the world  ) But, I won't give up on our current pope. It is evident that the Holy Ghost is working on him since his rather modernist days as a theologian at Vatican II. He just yet may surprise us all. Let us pray that he does... |
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« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 05:08:AM by Nic »
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"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12
Do battle, children of light, you, the few who see thereby; for the time of times, the end of ends, is at hand.
--Our Lady of La Salette
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader
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DJR
Posts: 434
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« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 06:23:PM » |
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As traditional Christians we are best placed of all to support the Pope and the intent of the council in restoring the liturgy which has been so dreadfully damaged since the NO was introduced. The liturgy was damaged before the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced. In fact, in my parish, the Mass had been so altered that no one could tell much difference between the new Mass and what we had immediately before it. Mass was completely in the vernacular, with the priest facing the people; Holy Communion had been received standing for at least four years before we ever heard the term "new Mass"; awful hymns were sung; veils disappeared; et cetera. That was all before the new Mass ever made it on the scene. |
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il_lebbroso
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Posts: 81
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 09:34:PM » |
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The liturgy was damaged before the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced. In fact, in my parish, the Mass had been so altered that no one could tell much difference between the new Mass and what we had immediately before it.
Mass was completely in the vernacular, with the priest facing the people; Holy Communion had been received standing for at least four years before we ever heard the term "new Mass"; awful hymns were sung; veils disappeared; et cetera. That was all before the new Mass ever made it on the scene.
Please, DJR, and anyone else, tell us more about this time period. I was young then but we had an elderly Polish-born priest who really couldn't speak English and he was allowed to continue celebrating the Latin Mass into the early '70's. This transition period has always fascinated me; I've always been interested in "turning points." |
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Only say the word,
And I shall be healed.
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glgas
Posts: 2,418
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 08:43:AM » |
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Please, DJR, and anyone else, tell us more about this time period. I was young then but we had an elderly Polish-born priest who really couldn't speak English and he was allowed to continue celebrating the Latin Mass into the early '70's. This transition period has always fascinated me; I've always been interested in "turning points."
The changes started in 1965. That was the year when the people facing altar and the vernacular (approved by the National conferences of the bishops) were allowed as option. This happened without clear regulation, and as a consequence it made confusion In 1976 the Tres Abhinc annos http://www.adoremus.org/TresAbhinc.htmltried to make order, but was unsuccessful, many priests developed their own liturgy. However the New Mass (with some exceptions) became obligatory only in 1972, so until that time everyone was allowed to celebrated Latin Masses according to the 1962 rules. After that date only old priest could celebrate private Masses according to the 1962 rubrics. |
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DJR
Posts: 434
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 11:16:PM » |
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Please, DJR, and anyone else, tell us more about this time period. I was young then but we had an elderly Polish-born priest who really couldn't speak English and he was allowed to continue celebrating the Latin Mass into the early '70's. This transition period has always fascinated me; I've always been interested in "turning points."
The changes started in 1965. That was the year when the people facing altar and the vernacular (approved by the National conferences of the bishops) were allowed as option. This happened without clear regulation, and as a consequence it made confusion In 1976 the Tres Abhinc annos http://www.adoremus.org/TresAbhinc.htmltried to make order, but was unsuccessful, many priests developed their own liturgy. However the New Mass (with some exceptions) became obligatory only in 1972, so until that time everyone was allowed to celebrated Latin Masses according to the 1962 rules. After that date only old priest could celebrate private Masses according to the 1962 rubrics. The above was not true of my diocese. Priests were not permitted to use the 1962 missal after the changes began coming. There was a “holdout” priest who tried to stick to the 1967 missal when the Mass kept changing, but he was forced into retirement. By 1968, one would be hard-pressed to hear any Latin in my diocese. It disappeared. In addition, the changes began happening earlier than 1965. For an example, see the website of the parish next to the one I grew up in. Here is what is written on the website: In September of 1946, a temporary Quonset hut was erected for the Church. Elementary school buildings were constructed later. The Quonset church and school were extensively damaged by a tornado on Palm Sunday of 1965. The present Church was completed in 1964 with the most recent addition of meeting rooms, new offices, and a gathering space named the "Holy Family Center" completed in 1996. Now take a look at the sanctuary. A freestanding altar with no tabernacle. The tabernacle is located in a side chapel to the left. That was in 1964. http://ted.tech.officelive.com/pinfo.aspx |
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DJR
Posts: 434
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 11:20:PM » |
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The liturgy was damaged before the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced. In fact, in my parish, the Mass had been so altered that no one could tell much difference between the new Mass and what we had immediately before it.
Mass was completely in the vernacular, with the priest facing the people; Holy Communion had been received standing for at least four years before we ever heard the term "new Mass"; awful hymns were sung; veils disappeared; et cetera. That was all before the new Mass ever made it on the scene.
Please, DJR, and anyone else, tell us more about this time period. I was young then but we had an elderly Polish-born priest who really couldn't speak English and he was allowed to continue celebrating the Latin Mass into the early '70's. This transition period has always fascinated me; I've always been interested in "turning points." It was a time of constant change, and there was no uniformity in the changes. For example, my parish stopped using the Communion rail in 1966-67, but our cathedral parish used theirs until about 1980. |
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devotedknuckles
Of course this land is dangerous! All of the animals Are capably murderous
Personality type: MisfitTrad
Posts: 9,408
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2009, 09:29:AM » |
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What ever happended to the pisseltron anyhooo?
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"I do not like this word "bomb." It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding." - French ambassador to New Zealand Jacques le Blanc, regarding press coverage of France's nuclear weapons tests in the Pacific http://www.martinjetpack.com/http://www.mugshotmuseum.com/SIP I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink. - Admiral William Halsey |
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Vetus Ordo
Famulus Christi
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Personality type: Sinner
Posts: 1,609
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 12:19:PM » |
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I like Pope Benedict XVI so much. He's just what the doctor ordered.
Oh, just grow up, will you? |
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"O MARY, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee."
"Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children. There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church." - Pius IX, Singulari Quidem.
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Zakhur
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Posts: 361
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2009, 09:29:AM » |
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What ever happended to the pisseltron anyhooo?
Hopefully, he's voraciously reading about the stuff he thinks we're all wrong about. |
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