veritatem_dilexisti
Cheese-Eating Surrender Trad
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Sip sip
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 04:41:AM » |
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I dont like the lack of participation in the TLM but that is only because Im used to the DLiturgy, and the responsoral method it employs, and maybe those used to the TLM dont like all the "action" in the D liturgy (just a guess really) I do get a chuckle when Latins, usually of the "traditional" brand, say unintentionally uninformed things like, "The Mass shouldn't have vocal congregational participation." It seems that, in an indiscriminate backlash against the Liturgical Movement, perceived as the origin of the Novus Ordo (which is not entirely false, in some regards), some simply throw away the baby with the bathwater. |
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moneil
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 07:06:AM » |
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Sounds like the TLM is distinctly inferior to the DL 
Given the reasons provided above by some who have voted, it appears that what is being compared with the Divine Liturgy here is the Low Mass, or the simple Missa cantata (without the congregation even responding or singing, which situation seems to be commonplace in the US), and not, say, the Solemn High Mass with Gregorian and polyphonic chant; such testimonies are therefore to be expected.
The TLM is not distinctly inferior to the DL I do not belive. The way it is commonly celebrated (Low Mass, no chant, no incense, no congregational responses) can make it seems less inspiring though. There are also some aspects of the DL that I personally like, such as the scripture readings and some prayers in the vernacular, Holy Communion under both species, full congregational participation in most of the chants, as those are deeply rooted in tradition, have been preserved in the DL, but have fallen into disuse in the TLM over the centuries. veritatem_dilexisti is correct, and it's unfortunate to have to compare the DL to the Low Mass, but that is what seems to be generally available, as was the case when I grew up in the 1950's. When I attended my first DL, it was Oh Wow ~ this is how to worship God. |
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veritatem_dilexisti
Cheese-Eating Surrender Trad
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Posts: 1,174
Sip sip
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 08:22:AM » |
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Do priests trained at the SSPX and FSSP seminaries in the US say Mass with congregational responses, congregational singing in alternation with the choir (of the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei), incense at the Missa cantata and Scripture readings in the vernacular, or is it much as in the 1950s?
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serviam
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2009, 08:32:AM » |
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I dont like the lack of participation in the TLM but that is only because Im used to the DLiturgy, and the responsoral method it employs, and maybe those used to the TLM dont like all the "action" in the D liturgy (just a guess really) I do get a chuckle when Latin's, usually of the "traditional" brand, say unintentionally uninformed things like, "The Mass shouldn't have vocal congregational participation." ditto |
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In Essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, Charity.
-St. Augustine
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s always laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benedicamus Domino!
- Hilaire Belloc
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Ravenonthecross
Lord Jhesu mercy! Holy Virgin Mary pray for us!
Gender:
Personality type: Melancholic
Posts: 701
Ran an dem Feind.....
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2009, 08:39:AM » |
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Out of respect for the O.P., I'll refrain from voting. But I wait every day for the oppurtunity to attend my first Tridentine Mass; I've watched videos of the TLM, read the prayers, and bought a hand-missal for the TLM (1958 Marian Missal re-print by Veritas Press). However, I've attend about a half-dozen Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostum, they are truly "other-worldy," mystical, mysterious, holy, and sacred; I can only hope that my first experience of the TLM is a High Mass, I so much and often wish to attend an otherworldly-High Mass of St. :Pius V.  |
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"He who asserts that he cannot be bound by the [Catholic] Church's bonds, confesses that he cannot be loosed by her authority. And he who makes such an assertion, separates himself wholly from Christ." [-St. Gregory VII, Letter to Bishop Hermann of Metz, 1076]
Sub Tuum Praesidium
We fly to thy patronage,O holy Mother of God;despise not our petitions in our necessities, but from all dangers deliver us always, O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen. [Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, circa 250 A.D.]
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GScheid
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 08:59:AM » |
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In DC, couple great churches with the TLM--loved St. Alphonsus
I haven't been able to find one in central FLA but have found a Maronite Mass with Aramaic spoken.
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Keep Christ in Christmas!!!
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Ravenonthecross
Lord Jhesu mercy! Holy Virgin Mary pray for us!
Gender:
Personality type: Melancholic
Posts: 701
Ran an dem Feind.....
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2009, 11:42:AM » |
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nice.
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"He who asserts that he cannot be bound by the [Catholic] Church's bonds, confesses that he cannot be loosed by her authority. And he who makes such an assertion, separates himself wholly from Christ." [-St. Gregory VII, Letter to Bishop Hermann of Metz, 1076]
Sub Tuum Praesidium
We fly to thy patronage,O holy Mother of God;despise not our petitions in our necessities, but from all dangers deliver us always, O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen. [Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, circa 250 A.D.]
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Vetus Ordo
Famulus Christi
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Personality type: Sinner
Posts: 1,609
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2009, 12:01:PM » |
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The unblemished liturgy of the Roman See, of course.
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"O MARY, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee."
"Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children. There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church." - Pius IX, Singulari Quidem.
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SinfullyLate
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Personality type: Personable
Posts: 251
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2009, 02:17:PM » |
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Sounds like the TLM is distinctly inferior to the DL
Given the reasons provided above by some who have voted, it appears that what is being compared with the Divine Liturgy here is the Low Mass, or the simple Missa cantata (without the congregation even responding or singing, which situation seems to be commonplace in the US), and not, say, the Solemn High Mass with Gregorian and polyphonic chant; such testimonies are therefore to be expected.
The TLM is not distinctly inferior to the DL I do not belive. The way it is commonly celebrated (Low Mass, no chant, no incense, no congregational responses) can make it seems less inspiring though. There are also some aspects of the DL that I personally like, such as the scripture readings and some prayers in the vernacular, Holy Communion under both species, full congregational participation in most of the chants, as those are deeply rooted in tradition, have been preserved in the DL, but have fallen into disuse in the TLM over the centuries. veritatem_dilexisti is correct, and it's unfortunate to have to compare the DL to the Low Mass, but that is what seems to be generally available, as was the case when I grew up in the 1950's. When I attended my first DL, it was Oh Wow ~ this is how to worship God. Ironically, I've never actually been to a low mass. The only TLM parish around me has high mass at 10:30 on a Sunday, so I've only ever been to a high mass  |
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"Obama? Obama shēng jīng bìng!"
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Credo
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2009, 03:11:PM » |
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I so much and often wish to attend an otherworldly-High Mass of St. :Pius V. Where on earth (literally) are you planning to hear Mass according to the Missal of S. Pius V? |
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"Amazing love! How can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?"
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un-giornamento
Windows shut and curtains drawn
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Posts: 29
Mostly Vanilla
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2009, 04:01:PM » |
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I so much and often wish to attend an otherworldly-High Mass of St. :Pius V. Where on earth (literally) are you planning to hear Mass according to the Missal of S. Pius V? He never said he was "planning" to attend one, only that he "wish[ed]" to attend one, as do I.  |
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The_Harlequin_King
The Abbot of Unreason
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Discerning my vocation to the cardinalate
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2009, 04:04:PM » |
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I believe Credo was referring to, literally, the original Tridentine Missal of 1570, which has some interesting differences than anything we're familiar with. Among them, I believe, is that the priest is directed to make a triple sign of the cross for the blessing after Mass (as bishops do) rather than the simple one.
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Medievalism: no school like the old school's old school's old school's old school.  |
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Credo
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2009, 04:27:PM » |
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I believe Credo was referring to, literally, the original Tridentine Missal of 1570, which has some interesting differences than anything we're familiar with. Bingo. |
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"Amazing love! How can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?"
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un-giornamento
Windows shut and curtains drawn
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Posts: 29
Mostly Vanilla
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2009, 07:34:PM » |
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I believe Ravenonthecross is, literally, as well. A wish to be able to experience such.
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serviam
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2009, 07:35:PM » |
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I believe Ravenonthecross is, literally, as well. A wish to be able to experience such.
That would be pretty sweet. |
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In Essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, Charity.
-St. Augustine
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s always laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benedicamus Domino!
- Hilaire Belloc
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Poll
