Blessed JP2?

[CrusaderKing]

reread my post, I didn't say he should be canonized.  but he probably will be... and it should be interpreted in the same context as all other modern canonizations that didn't include a devil's advocate or scrutinize things as well as they once did.

and I do believe that on the day of wrath we will all be quite shocked at the unknown failings of many saints.

 I did read your post, and I gave you the differences between Popes and Saints who weren't Popes and the criteria for their causes.

As I recall, Pope Benedict XVI has restored the Devil's Advocate and the requirements necessary for Beatification and Canonization, though I could be mistaken there.

[Petertherock]

And isn't FIRE typically a symbol of the strength and power (or at least presence) of GOD? 

Recall, Dante had Hell as freezing.

I don't know who Dante is but I know Christ said Hell will be a place of fire.

[Herr_Mannelig]

And isn't FIRE typically a symbol of the strength and power (or at least presence) of GOD? 

Recall, Dante had Hell as freezing.

I don't know who Dante is but I know Christ said Hell will be a place of fire.

You don't know who Dante is? Dante Alighieri wrote the Divine Comedy which is quite well known.

However, Dante has the centre of Hell freezing. The other layers were variable. Some where hot, some desolate, others with no particular climate but other forms of Hell.

Christ didn't say Hell would be a place of fire. He compared Hell to places of fire. In Matthew 3, Hell is repeatedly compared to human conventions which involve fire. This is because fire was the way of desposing of garbage and waste in those days. Matthew 5:22 in the English says "hell fire" but the original Greek mentions Gehenna, where rubbish was burned. All fire references that I can find are from analogy where actual fire is present on Earth. Hell itself may not have actual fire, at least, not in a way which resembled fire which we know.

[Vetus Ordo]

As I recall, Pope Benedict XVI has restored the Devil's Advocate and the requirements necessary for Beatification and Canonization, though I could be mistaken there.

I never heard or read about that in any place. Disgracefully, I think the laxity inaugurated by Pope John Paul II regarding these procedures is maintained.

[Resurrexi]

canonizations are infallible.  those who are not sedevacantists or sedeprivationists must accept at least that those who have been canonized truly are in heaven.

now, I think there is something to be said for the sloppiness of the current process to the point where it may be said that saints canonized in the modern Church might often be those who, in pre conciliar times, would have been unpopular saints (ie, people who made it to heaven but the Church Militant on earth did not know were in heaven).  the Church in modern times has exposed as in heaven far more people than the Church used to expose as being in heaven.  this may be a bad thing in the sense that it brings to the altar many who did things on earth that all of us know about which are not things that should be imitated... but on the other hand, since they truly are in heaven it is good that we know more friends of Our Lord in heaven who, though some things in their earthly examples were questionable, have now been made perfect and can intercede for us there.

also of note: all of the saints have done things in their earthly lives which are not to be imitated, it's just that the old standards only raised to the altars the saints of whom we didn't know their earthly sins.  in the Dies Irae comes the chilling line about the final judgment "when scarce the saints themselves are sure"--this is because at the moment of the last judgment, we will know everything about everyone's sins on earth.  the only ones who will stand blameless before Our Lord will be Our Lady, and possible St. John the Baptist.  Every other saint we will come to know all the imperfections, all the sins that they committed on earth... and in that revelation "scarce the saints themselves" will be sure of their salvation.  of course, they are assuredly saved, but the things that St. Pius X did wrong on earth will be just as well known as some of the things John Paul II did wrong and we will all be amazed at the tremendous mercy of Our Lord as He shows how those things were forgiven.

it's almost apocalyptic to see that we start to have so many saints of whom we know many of their faults, since there are so many saints that we will only learn the faults of on the last day.  if (and according to the earthly politics of it, probably "when") John Paul II is raised to the altars, I think it would be wise to pray to him.  not to imitate him in kissing Korans and asking John the Baptist to protect Islam, but to rejoice in the fact that Christ has washed over those faults.

in the earthly politics of it, it may indeed make sense to oppose his canonization since it will be interpreted by so many as an endorsement of the wrong things he did (which is why previously there was a Devil's Advocate and a more rigorous process, so that there was never any confusion of the Church approving of wrong things as things to be imitated as if they were heroic virtue)... but that is obviously not the atmosphere in Rome right now so we will probably see a canonization.  regardless of what ill fruits it might bear in terms of people considering wrong actions like Assisi to be virtuous, it will still at least be GOOD NEWS, because we will at least know for certain that the man made it into heaven and we can thank our Good Lord for that.

of course, everything I just said doesn't apply if you no longer believe that the Chair of Peter is held in Rome.  but as I understand it, that position's not welcome to be discussed on these forums.

+1

[John92]

Pope John Paul II was a holy, gentle, kind man; some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm and he really did a lot to move us back toward orthodoxy, a work which, praise be to God, his successor has been pursuing with great zeal.

Wouldn't bother me any if he gets canonized

[Herr_Mannelig]

Pope John Paul II was a holy, gentle, kind man; some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm

"Not meaning any harm" is not what we want leaders to be. We want to them not to do any harm.

[Baskerville]

JPII is the saint the Novus Ordo religion so desperately needs. Unfortunately, it will be done.

Who are you people?  Do you not have any faith in the Church?  Do you honestly think that you know better than the Holy Ghost?

The Magisterium cannot proclaim JPII a saint if he isn't one, so if they do, what in the world do you have to complain about?  Even if there were problems with his pontificate, if he's good enough for the mercy of the Lord then he should be good enough for yours.

The Church can't screw this stuff up.  Whatever She states here is really how it is.

The Devil's Advocate was the major help the Holy Spirit had to handle the matter. Now it has been suppressed, how can He favour or oppose a canonization?

Bingo!

[John92]

Pope John Paul II was a holy, gentle, kind man; some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm

"Not meaning any harm" is not what we want leaders to be. We want to them not to do any harm.

True, but that doesn't necessarily effect whether or not he is enjoying the Beatific Vision.  Given his access to the sacraments and the millions and millions of prayers said for his soul at death I think we can be fairly certain that he's there.

[Baskerville]

While I wouldn't say JPII is definitely in Hell. I will let this picture speak for itself...

And isn't FIRE typically a symbol of the strength and power (or at least presence) of GOD? 

Recall, Dante had Hell as freezing.

That is interesting, I hadn't thought of that. Also the burning bush.

I remember when that pic first came out how funny it was. All these goofball Poles going "oh oh its JPII" JPII groupies are so lame.

[Petertherock]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

[John92]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

As for actions and inactions, what can I say, the situation is much much more complicated than that.  I think he really did try to do what he could to return us to orthodoxy and he did a decent job, considering that he was practically surrounded by heretics.

[Baskerville]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

+1

[Baskerville]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

[Petertherock]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

+1 To deny that Pope JPII had anything to do with the homosexual scandal is incredible ignorance. It would be like saying President Bush had nothing to do with the Iraq war.