Blessed JP2?

[John92]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

+1 To deny that Pope JPII had anything to do with the homosexual scandal is incredible ignorance. It would be like saying President Bush had nothing to do with the Iraq war.

   Ignorance and -fishies acknowledged.  I should really stop opening my fat mouth when I don't know much about the topic at hand . . .

Sorry guys.  Carry on.

[Vetus Ordo]

some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm

How do you know that? You're inside his mind?

[CrusaderKing]

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

As for actions and inactions, what can I say, the situation is much much more complicated than that.  I think he really did try to do what he could to return us to orthodoxy and he did a decent job, considering that he was practically surrounded by heretics.

Pope JP II had plenty to do with it. For one thing, he resisted most reports of the sex scandals as being the part of Communist plots. When incontrovertible evidence did reach him, he sat on it and did nothing, even to the point of refusing to meet with the victims.

Second, he hardly did much to return us to orthodoxy when bishops who defied him were promoted to the rank of Cardinal. Un-orthodoxy continued to flourish under his reign. He had a laissez-faire philosophy in running the Church, which strikes at the very heart of what the Papacy is about. Future seminarians will never be taught to govern the Church the way Pope John Paul II or Pope Paul VI did.

[John92]

some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm

How do you know that? You're inside his mind?

I dunno man, I guess you're right.

[Vetus Ordo]

some of his actions, even a great number of them, may have been misguided but he never meant any harm

How do you know that? You're inside his mind?

I dunno man, I guess you're right.

All we can do is humbly judge his external actions, whatever his motives were. His external actions speak volumes. If the scandalous Pope John Paul II is proclaimed a saint of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, someone to be modeled after by Catholics, then I'll believe the Novus Ordo religion has won the present battle and that the restoration of the Church will have to wait a bit longer.

[Petertherock]

+1 To deny that Pope JPII had anything to do with the homosexual scandal is incredible ignorance. It would be like saying President Bush had nothing to do with the Iraq war.

   Ignorance and -fishies acknowledged.  I should really stop opening my fat mouth when I don't know much about the topic at hand . . .

Sorry guys.  Carry on.

Don't sweat it. My fishies count goes up and down all the time. I really don't like the fishies thing because I think people are hesitant to say what's really on their mind because they are afraid to lose fishies. I think it can go a long way to self love and pride if you have a lot of them. Although, on the other hand if someone gets mad at someone or doesn't like someone's post, I guess it makes them feel better to take a fish away which is probably better then starting an argument.

As for JPII, before I found traditionalism I was one of his biggest defenders. I was not inside his head. I also know some of the greatest Saints were also great sinners. But I don't know of any Saint who went to his death bed causing as much scandal as JPII did. It is true that many great Saints were enemies of Jesus. Including Saint Paul who killed Christians. However, they repented before their death. They reformed their life.

It is also true that JPII did some wonderful things. He was very instrumental in bringing down the Berlin Wall.

But his scandalous actions and inactions are just too much for him to be made a Saint. He very well could have made it to Heaven. I hope he did. But with all the scandal he caused, his kissing the Koran, his advocating that anyone can be saved no matter what religion they are, his advocating that all religions are equal with Catholicism, and of course his promoting homosexuals in the Church are inexcusable when it comes to making someone a Saint. He did more damage to the Church then any Pope in history. He could have restored the Catholic Church after the VII disaster but instead he tried to destroy it. I hope that wasn't his intention. I hope he was just misguided. I also thank God he didn't get away with changing the Hail Mary like he wanted to.

I will never say the Luminator Mysteries. Even though they aren't sinful in themselves, they are not part of the Rosary. When Our Lady gave us the Rosary, She called it "Her Psalter." A Psalter is 150, 150 does not go into 4 at all. The Luminous Mysteries are a good private devotion but not part of the Rosary of Our Lady.

[Baskerville]

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

Because of JPII's actions and inactions, many people are in Hell. Leading many souls to Hell isn't becoming of a Saint. JPII turned the Catholic Church into a Protestant Church and allowed homosexuals to abuse young boys.

JPII had absolutely nothing to do with the pedophile scandal 

The Legionaries of Christ founded by Marcel Marciel was a sex abuse thing that he was directly responsible for. Marciel and others were abusing seminarians and some whistleblowers told the Pope about this and he chose not to believe it. Now Pope Benedict had Marciel step down and do penance because of his sex crimes Benedict acknowledged them JPII only talked about how great his friend Marciel was even after he was told about his slippery fingers. JPII is no saint and meaning well really shouldnt cut it. I mean well but there sure as hell is no way I am a saint. That dog aint gonna hunt.

+1 To deny that Pope JPII had anything to do with the homosexual scandal is incredible ignorance. It would be like saying President Bush had nothing to do with the Iraq war.

   Ignorance and -fishies acknowledged.  I should really stop opening my fat mouth when I don't know much about the topic at hand . . .

Sorry guys.  Carry on.

  (Its just how you learn no worries.

[nsper7]

But his scandalous actions and inactions are just too much for him to be made a Saint. He very well could have made it to Heaven. I hope he did. But with all the scandal he caused, his kissing the Koran, his advocating that anyone can be saved no matter what religion they are, his advocating that all religions are equal with Catholicism, and of course his promoting homosexuals in the Church are inexcusable when it comes to making someone a Saint. He did more damage to the Church then any Pope in history. He could have restored the Catholic Church after the VII disaster but instead he tried to destroy it. I hope that wasn't his intention. I hope he was just misguided. I also thank God he didn't get away with changing the Hail Mary like he wanted to.

When did JP2 state that other religions are equal to Catholicism and when did he promote homosexual behavior in the Church? My understanding is that he came under a lot of flak from liberals/progressives because he refused to exonerate or accept homosexual behavior as okay.

[Baskerville]

I also thank God he didn't get away with changing the Hail Mary like he wanted to.

SAY WHAT!!! I never heard this before he wanted it changed?

[INPEFESS]

I also thank God he didn't get away with changing the Hail Mary like he wanted to.

SAY WHAT!!! I never heard this before he wanted it changed?

That's what I've heard, too, but I've never seen it evidenced.

[Petertherock]

This isn't about JPII changing the Hail Mary but this is why we shouldn't say the Luminous Mysteries...

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/beads.htm

A brief explanation for why we do not include the added five mysteries from Pope John Paul II:

Our Lady gave St. Dominic Fifteen Mysteries not twenty. There is nothing in the extra five that requires special 21st century knowledge in order to be told of them or to appreciate them. The Pontiff, merely added novelty. He knew it, too, because he said they were optional: The Holy Ghost would not permit a Pontiff to bind the consciences of the faithful in re a novelty. They add nothing to the devotion of the Holy Rosary as if it needed updating so Catholics would pray it. The Pope is the "custodian of Tradition, not a change agent", in the words of John Vennari, editor of Catholic Family News. Mr. Vennari has a CD on the New Mysteries. The CD, an excellent compendium on the Rosary, papal authority and popular piety, is part of a set but I think he still sells it as a single unit. Every Catholic who is serious about true devotion to the Mother of God ought to listen to this CD so he can fortify himself to defend the Church's Tradition. Call 1-905-871-6292 in the USA. The papal oath, which the Pontiffs used to take before Vatican II, includes the declaration that if the Pontiff should break with Tradition he expects God to judge him severely, specifically "May God not have mercy on me." John Paul II did not take the oath but it remains the hallmark of the limits of the papacy. The fact that popes felt it necessary to take this oath for centuries, means that they knew it it was possible to stray from Tradition. An oath is unnecessary for matters that are not possible, by definition. St. Vincent of Lerins says that when faced with novelty we ought to keep to Tradition and reject the novelty, which has no place in our religion. When Our Lady came to Fatima the three seers were taught to add the Fatima decade prayer, which is not a novelty but a part of the message of Fatima itself---the many souls that go to Hell in this very evil age because there is no one to pray for them. The Rosary is Our Lady's Psalter and she may dispose of it as she wants, this is her prerogative, not ours, not even the Pontiff's. The Rosary is called Our Lady's Psalter because the Rosary decades of Fifteen Mysteries contain 150 Hail Marys, one for each of the 150 Psalms of the Old Testament---not a coincidence. We do not apologize for following Saint Vincent of Lerins who taught in unison with thousands of Saints, Martyrs, Doctors and Fathers of the Church. I once said that if anyone can point to any official Saint of the Church who taught that novelty in religion was a good thing and practiced it himself, that I would reconsider the extra five "mysteries". To date no one has been able to do so. No Saint has ever said in line with John Paul II that the Rosary of the Fifteen Mysteries lacks "Christological depth." If the Holy Rosary really did, what a slap against Our Lady who would be so ignorant of her own Psalter! Unbelievable!! The entire history of the Rosary is bound closely with the 150 Psalms: St. Benedict and his monks recited the 150 Psalms every week at the minimum. This became essentially the Divine Office until Vatican II. After a time the Psalms were divided into thirds, the joyful, sorrowful and glorious; the laity substituted 150 Hail Marys for the Psalms as they knew the Hail Mary and not each Psalm by heart and having the sense of the Faith they were confident that each Psalm was united to the Hail Mary it represented. Moreover, when Our Lord told the Apostles to cast their nets into the water again, they caught exactly 153 fish, one for each Hail Mary on the Fifteen Decades plus the three at the beginning. Again a pointer to the Holy Rosary which would be the cause of the Moslem defeat at Lepanto in the 16th century and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart when the Pontiff finally consecrates Russia by name to Our Lady's Immaculate Heart.

When Our Lady told St. Dominic to preach the Rosary, she said "Preach my Psalter, pray my Psalter." At the time heresy had a stranglehold on the people and St. Dominic had been called by Christ to repel and defeat it.

When Our Lady said "my Psalter" she referred to the 150 Hail Marys of three classes of Mysteries, not four. She said it was a battering ram against heresy. If we used the 20 Mysteries, this places an impossibility on those who are unable to say the entire Rosary but are able to fulfill the minimum of a third, or five decades, traditionally thought of as the daily Rosary devotion. A third of 20 is a fraction, not a whole number or integer. How does one say a fraction of the Rosary. Add 2 and a half Hail Marys? Come on. All this is more modernism, busy work at updating what is complete and perfect in of itself. It is as if an infectious agent or germ has invaded the upper echelons of the human aspect of the Church, one that causes frenetic activity for the sake of activity rather than docility to tradition and serenity in the contemplation of the sublime.

[maso]

reread my post, I didn't say he should be canonized.  but he probably will be... and it should be interpreted in the same context as all other modern canonizations that didn't include a devil's advocate or scrutinize things as well as they once did.

and I do believe that on the day of wrath we will all be quite shocked at the unknown failings of many saints.

Finding "the unknown failing of many saints" that is exactly the task the Devil's Advocate was entrusted in, so that we didn't have to wait until the Day of Wrath to know them.
Possibly the Canonization trials weren't perfect in these respects in the pre-JPII times. Now they have become truly flawed.

[Credo]

How do you know that? You're inside his mind?

I can hardly read my own mind, let alone the late pope's (of happy memory). That being said, his works bespeak a love for Christ.

[Louis_Martin]

How do you know that? You're inside his mind?

I can hardly read my own mind, let alone the late pope's (of happy memory). That being said, his works bespeak a love for Christ.

and Muhammed. And Brahma. And Buddha. And the Great Spirit. And...

[Credo]

and Muhammed. And Brahma. And Buddha. And the Great Spirit. And...

There is a difference between respect and love. Catholics can, and should, respect other religions with the highest considerations. This approach need not stand in the way of Christian evangelization. In my weekly associations with "traditional" Catholics, I see writ large the attitude Jo. Paul was trying to do away with. The misunderstandings and bias' which my fellow parishioners have about other religious groups is significant. This need not be so in order to win souls for Christ.

It is an error - and frankly a revelation of insecurity - when men like Mohammedan, Buddha, Luther, or Calvin are written-off by Catholics as being "fools" or "idiots." Why not just admit they were intelligent men seeking the truth who fell into error? Oh that's right, one couldn't be quite as polemical then...