Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum
March 20, 2010, 06:01:AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Fish Eaters chat is here!  Click "CHAT ROOM" in the menu to sign in.
 
   Fish Eaters    Forum Index   Forum Rules   Help Search Calendar Members Chat Room   Who's Chatting   Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
 
Author Topic: Why must we refer to God as "He"?  (Read 607 times)
SmileBugMK

Gender: Female
Personality type: Sanguine, ENFJ
Posts: 275



« on: November 19, 2009, 01:30:PM »

So I wrote to a theologian on Facebook.  I don't know him, but we have mutual facebook friends so I saw an update that a friend of mine commented on.  He's writing a book, and he's decided to refer to God in a gender-neutral way.  It doesn't look like the gender issue is relevant to the subject of his book, however.  He asked me if I thought God was male.  I answered that Christ in His humanity is of course male, but God in his essence as spirit is neither male nor female, like the angels.  Hopefully that answer was not wrong.  But anyway, quoted below is the relevant part of my original letter.  I feel like there's something really obvious that I'm missing, as to why the God(dess) business is absolutely incorrect.  Obviously, "The Church has always refered to God as 'He'," isn't going to cut it for this guy, which tells me I'm probably wasting my time.  But I've seen this nonsense other places as well and would like to be able to present a clear argument against it.

Quote
Using "God" rather than "S/He" et al is an improvement, but it's still clunky in my opinion. English prose without pronouns just isn't natural, and their conspicuous omission can only distract the reader from what you are actually trying to say!

More important than issues of style is that you believe enforcing a gender neutrality in reference to God is more "enlightened," whatever that means, than the tradtional practice of refering to God with the masculine pronoun, a practice that was followed by Christ Himself, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to be written into the Scriptures. Of course Christ, being a man, cannot be referenced by any pronouns but the masculine, but this is also true of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Two quick examples: 1) Try reading the book of Hosea with a genderless God. 2) How could Mary be the spouse of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit could just as well be refered to as "She"? The whole of Scripture and Catholic Tradition is intensely rich with nuptial themes, most of which would be thrown out of the window by adopting this gender neutral nonsense. You may already be familiar with it, but I highly recommend the lecture "The Bridegroom Messiah" by Dr. Brant Pitre for an overview of this theme. Refering to God as "He" isn't about boys being better than girls. Both male and female were created in His image; we can't get more dignified than that.

The way I see it, all human beings being feminine in relation to God (Who must of course therefore be masculine) is beautifully affirming of the dignity of women. Humankind, whom God loves infinitely and wishes to be with Him forever in perfect eternal happiness, is characterized as a woman, a wife. Christ died for His Bride, the Church. Of course St. Paul makes this connection in Ephesisans 5 by telling husbands that they must lay down their lives for their wives. In human experience, marriage is the most intimate relationship possible. God desires perfect unity with all of us, represented by the intimacy between husband and wife.

Of course this just a smattering of all that can be said on the subject, but please think (and pray!) very carefully on the matter before you go forward with your book. Popular ideas are always changing, but God and His revelation of Himself to us never change.
Logged

Adoremus in unum.  Adoremus in aeternum.

elizabee

Gender: Female
Personality type: ESFJ
Posts: 365



« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 01:55:PM »

Yikes! God revealed Himself with the masculine pronoun (ie the Bible). The Church has several explanations about why He has chosen to do so despite being in Himself transcendent of sex, but our obedience should not be contingent on our understanding. He can't be claiming to write a Catholic book if he's entertaining that nonsense.
Logged

Formerly posted as shirhamalot.
cgraye

Gender: Male
Personality type: Melancholic
Posts: 1,638



« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 02:02:PM »

Well, I think you are on the right track.  I once read something that stuck with me.  It was about how God relates to creation in a masculine way, as you have touched on.  Reproductively speaking, a man gives, begets, is active, initiates, and a woman receives, conceives, is passive, and awaits.  Likewise, God gives, begets, is active, initiates, while creation receives, is begotten, is passive, and awaits.  The direction of generation flows from masculine to feminine, and so it is with God, who then must necessarily be masculine in his relation to creation.
Logged

Chris
StrictCatholicGirl

Posts: 6,722



« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 02:03:PM »

And of course Jesus taught us to call God "Our Father..." To be gender neutral we'd have to say "Our Parent" and there lacks a poetic ring, among other things.

Logged

- Lisa

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal- who allow scandals to destroy faith- are guilty of spiritual suicide. -- St. Francis de Sales

Charity unites us to God... There is nothing mean in charity, nothing arrogant. Charity knows no schism, does not rebel, does all things in concord. In charity all the elect of God have been made perfect. -- Pope St. Clement I
Walty
There's always a siren singing you to shipwreck.

Gender: Male
Personality type: Melancholic-Phlegmatic
Posts: 5,048



« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 02:10:PM »

This theologian obviously knows better than not only the Prophets, but Christ.
Logged

--------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------Lámh Dhearg Abu---------------------------

This is my hand. I can turn it. The blood is still running in it.
The sun is still in the sky and the wind is blowing.
 And I... I, Antonius Block, play chess with Death.
mamalove
the veiled terror

Gender: Female
Personality type: handmaiden
Posts: 271


putting fear into the hearts of feminists


« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 04:21:PM »

you cant tell those "gender equality" theologians anything...might as well send him an e mail that says blah blah blah blah.... Fish-Eater Smackdown

why do we have to call God "He"?

short answer: because we are not goddess worshipping liberal "nuns"
Logged

The Grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men, instructing us that, denying ungodliness and worldly desires, we should live soberly, and justly, and godly in this world, looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us form all iniquity, and might cleanse to Himself a people acceptable, a pursurer of good workd.  These things speak, and exhort:  in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 2, 11-15

Blessed is the man who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly
Psalm 1:1
mike6240

Gender: Male
Posts: 919



« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 04:24:PM »

Jesus said for us to call God "Our Father".  Father means "he".  End of story.  period.

It's the same with "This is my Body" - "This is my Blood".  Jesus said it.  period.  End of story. He didn't imply it or suggest it.  He said it.

How obvious and blantant can Jesus be?  Or let me rephrase this:  How ignorant and blind can we be (or perhaps, how disobedient can we be)?
Logged

And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.  And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
DesperatelySeeking

Posts: 1,181



« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 04:34:PM »

Jesus said for us to call God "Our Father".  Father means "he".  End of story.  period.

Yup, that pretty much does it.
Logged
Louis_Martin
Living the nightmare

Gender: Male
Personality type: Choleric/Phlegmatic. "Mastermind". INTJ.
Posts: 832


like tears in the rain


« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2009, 05:44:PM »

Well, I think you are on the right track.  I once read something that stuck with me.  It was about how God relates to creation in a masculine way, as you have touched on.  Reproductively speaking, a man gives, begets, is active, initiates, and a woman receives, conceives, is passive, and awaits.  Likewise, God gives, begets, is active, initiates, while creation receives, is begotten, is passive, and awaits.  The direction of generation flows from masculine to feminine, and so it is with God, who then must necessarily be masculine in his relation to creation.
Well put.  The best way to deal with people who have a problem with calling God a "He" is to point out that creation is a "she," in that it is receptive to God's action.
Also, in the reproductive act, females move between potency and act as regards fertility (i.e. when pregnant you cannot conceive at that time).  Males however in the reproductive act do not move from potency to act, but are always in act (as in, you remain fertile despite conceiving).  God never moves from potency to act as He is unmoved.  So He in the creative act is the male, lest He change.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 05:50:PM by Louis_Martin » Logged

Never go with what is acceptable, only with what is greatest.

I don't pretend to know everything, but I don't pretend to not know what I know I know, so I know what I know and I like people who agree with what I know I know, and I'm indifferent to differences of opinion on what I know I don't know.
serviam

Gender: Male
Posts: 404



« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2009, 05:46:PM »

This theologian obviously knows better than not only the Prophets, but Christ.
+1
Logged

In Essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, Charity.
-St. Augustine
 
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s always laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! 
- Hilaire Belloc
SmileBugMK

Gender: Female
Personality type: Sanguine, ENFJ
Posts: 275



« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 06:26:PM »

Thank you for your replies, everyone.  I ought to have asked for your prayers for this soul as well.  I wrote a response summarizing what you all have said.  You've given me some beautiful things to contemplate Louis and cgraye!  I think this will be the end of the discussion, so here are my closing remarks, in the hopes they will be useful to you as well.   Tip o' the hat

Quote
Really, the consistent use of masculine pronouns in reference to God and the complete absence of feminine ones in Scripture ought to be enough. God chose to identify Himself as father, husband, priest, king, and son. The names for God given in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures are likewise all masculine. The masculine more acurately describes the relationship of God to creation, as I touched upon above.

Ultimately, this is a question of authority. The problem with deciding to make God gender-neutral is that God Himself has taught us how to think and speak of Him. The most obvious example of course is Jesus teaching us, "When you pray, say, 'Our Father...'" To say that we need not follow this mandate is to say that either the masculine imagery in Scripture is not inspired, which contradicts the very nature of Scripture, or that it is arbitrary, which contradicts the very nature of God.

Logged

Adoremus in unum.  Adoremus in aeternum.

glgas

Posts: 2,411


« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 08:30:PM »

The problem lays only in the Indogerman and semitic languages. The Ural Altaic languages, and has gender neutral pronouns only, the same pronoun for male, female.

May be God is not Indoeuropean, neither Semitic.
Logged
Petertherock
Greatest of all sinners

Gender: Male
Posts: 1,175



WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2009, 09:07:PM »

Jesus said for us to call God "Our Father".  Father means "he".  End of story.  period.

Yup, that pretty much does it.

Ditto. Jesus says God is our Father, so that would tell me God is male.

Logged

Darryl
Ut In Omnibus Glorificetur Deus
Benno

Personality type: All 4 supposedly
Posts: 785



« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2009, 11:28:PM »

Just a problem with what "masculine" and "feminine" mean, that's all. If he/she  Smiley is hung up about it all, mention how the desert fathers used to describe some women saints as "masculine". Maybe add that St J of the C said that Jesus "effeminized" men with His touch. Language picks up on truth - "male" and "female" etc mean certain things, and should. If your friend doesn't accept that male and female etc mean different things, he/she won't get the rest. There should be no gender-neutral translations, because they miss half the translation. Maybe get your friend to include a glossary which controversially defines "masculine" and "feminine", even if he/she has to refer to cultural traditions. Then the usage might be seen as coming from at least a logical "prejudice".
Logged
Credo

Posts: 5,164



« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 04:43:AM »

Quote from: elizabee
He can't be claiming to write a Catholic book if he's entertaining that nonsense.

Can you please explain this? The above statement can easily lend itself to serious misunderstanding, even blasphemy. At first blush, I read the above as saying that God needs to conform to the standards of the Catholic Church in order to reveal Scripture.
Logged

"Amazing love! How can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?"
Pages: [1] 2
 
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC