|
KylePalko
|
|
« on: November 20, 2009, 04:33:PM » |
|
I don't particularly know where I stand on the issue of purgatory, and Hell. As I lean more towards purgatory existing without a Hell. Anything that you find hard to believe, or don't particularly agree with?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
AlanF
Gender: 
Posts: 505
|
|
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 04:59:PM » |
|
I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches because it has been revealed it it by God, who is Truth. That includes both Purgatory and Hell.
For what reason do you not believe in Hell?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 05:03:PM by AlanF »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Arun
Toxophilic Theophile
Gender:
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676
IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS
|
|
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2009, 06:13:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God! Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die. Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! "You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı *Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre* |
|
|
Texican
a bad Catholic
Gender:
Personality type: espartá i una mica salvatge
Posts: 6,652
Если не я, то кто?
|
|
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 06:18:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
fish |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St. Bernard of Clairvaux, pray for us. Special Operations Warrior Foundation Wounded Warrior Project“Socialism is simply Communism for people without the testosterone to man the barricades” -Gary North God and the soldier all men adore, in times of danger and not before, when the danger is over and all is righted, God is forgotten and the soldier is slighted. |
|
|
|
KylePalko
|
|
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2009, 06:23:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
Funny one. And I just haven't heard of purgatory existing "scripturally." Only through the Catechism. Growing up it wasn't one of those things I was pressured to believe, or talked about much, for whatever reason that may be. I guess this is the wrong forum to be asking this question as it appears there are no Cafeteria Catholics in the building. Sorry if this seemed offensive. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Arun
Toxophilic Theophile
Gender:
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676
IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS
|
|
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2009, 06:30:PM » |
|
References to it can be found in 2 Maccabees, i think...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God! Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die. Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! "You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı *Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre* |
|
|
Arun
Toxophilic Theophile
Gender:
Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 1,676
IN NOMINE TVO LEVABO MANVS MEAS
|
|
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 06:36:PM » |
|
From the SSPX website, on Hell.
Does hell exist? What does it seem to mean for some theologians and teachers in the Church today?
Up until recent times no Catholic, however ill-informed or poorly instructed, was ever left in doubt or bewilderment concerning the reality of hell and everlasting punishment should he have the misfortune to die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin. hell existed. It was a place or state of eternal punishment inhabited by those rejected by God. It is a de fide teaching that hell is a reality, that the punishment of hell lasts for all eternity. That the punishment of the damned, however, is proportioned to each one’s guilt is the common view of the Church’s theologians: it is not de fide.
St. Augustine teaches "in their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others" (Enchiridion III), a viewpoint illustrated poetically in the Inferno of Dante, where he places not only Alexander the Great and Attila the Hun, but also Pope Celestine V and Pope Anastasius —the latter mistakenly, for in all probability he refers to the Emperor of the same name.
Hell is peopled with damned souls —damned by their own sins and in accordance with the absolute justice and mercy of God. Yes, even hell, with all its torments, is an act of mercy.
Those who teach or give expression to a hell that exists but is surprisingly and comfortingly empty, fly in the face of the entire Tradition of the Church.
These ideas first appeared in the works of Origen and were condemned. In our time they are to be found under the pen of Hans Urs von Balthasar and the convert theologian, Sergei Bulgakov, whom the pope confuses, it seems, with the novelist Mikhail Bulgakov in his Crossing the Threshold of Hope; similar views, it would appear, are to be found in the writings of the pope himself, as if he doubted or had the greatest reservations concerning the consequences of the doctrine of hell which he upholds elsewhere. (New Catechism, 1033, where unfortunately hell is put in quotation marks). Faced with the defined doctrine of the Church in this matter, he says in his new book, faced with the mystery of the damned in hell, "the silence of the Church is therefore the only appropriate position for Christian faith." The Church was never silent, her doctrine is clear as is that of Christ Himself. Hell is for all eternity. Wretched and miserable souls go there to experience the terror of those terrible words of Christ, "Depart from me you cursed into the everlasting flames of hell." (Matt. 25:41), to experience the horror of Dante’s verse: "Abandon hope all you who enter here" (Canto III, 9). [Answered by Fr. Leo Boyle]
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God! Genesis XXVII:iii-iv Take thy arms, thy quiver and bow, and go abroad:and when thou hast taken something by hunting, make me savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it, that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee before I die. Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes! "You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. " - St Athanasius BEST ART INSTRUCTIONAL EVER: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html˙sǝɔıʇslos ʎolǝʌɐs puɐ ɹǝɥʇɐǝʍ ǝƃuɐɹo ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ llɐ s,ʇı *Pray for the canonisation of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre* |
|
|
ResiduumRevertetur
Gender: 
Personality type: ENTJ
Posts: 2,851
|
|
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 06:43:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
Funny one. And I just haven't heard of purgatory existing "scripturally." Only through the Catechism. Growing up it wasn't one of those things I was pressured to believe, or talked about much, for whatever reason that may be. I guess this is the wrong forum to be asking this question as it appears there are no Cafeteria Catholics in the building. Sorry if this seemed offensive. Here's a great site: http://scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html Welcome and I hope you find answers to your questions here somewhere. edited to answer your first question: Are there any specific parts of the Catholic Church you disagree with? No. I may disagree with human beings and their actions within the Church, sure, but they are not the Church. Be careful with how you determine what is and what is not The Church. She is spotless. God Bless, Kyle. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 06:47:PM by ResiduumRevertetur »
|
Logged
|
The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. --Stephen, Braveheart
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ss Clare and Monica, orate pro nobis
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Google helps me be a better speller...
|
|
|
|
SouthpawLink
Personality type: Melancholic
Posts: 202
|
|
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 07:10:PM » |
|
I don't particularly know where I stand on the issue of purgatory, and Hell. As I lean more towards purgatory existing without a Hell. Anything that you find hard to believe, or don't particularly agree with?
To be honest, I'm not very happy with paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" (LG 16; cf. NA 3). How are the Muslims included in God's plan of salvation? Must they be converted, or are they fine in their state of unbelief (concerning the Blessed Trinity and Our Lord Jesus Christ)? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"According to Christian doctrine man, endowed with a social nature, is placed on this earth, so that by leading a life in society and under an authority ordained by God (cf. Rom. 13:1) he may develop and evolve fully all his faculties to the praise and glory of his Creator; and by faithfully performing the duty of his trade, or of any other vocation, he may acquire for himself both temporal and eternal happiness" (Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, n. 118, 15 May 1931: DS 3743).
|
|
|
Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES
Posts: 11,153
|
|
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 07:20:PM » |
|
I don't particularly know where I stand on the issue of purgatory, and Hell. As I lean more towards purgatory existing without a Hell. Anything that you find hard to believe, or don't particularly agree with?
Look at it this way, as I do. Hell exists, but it isn't like it is in common thought. God loves us so much, that a person who rejects God gets exactly what they want. Forever. Makes sense to me. Purgatory is not permanent. It is extra cleansing which wasn't done in mortal life. Many people have a hard to really understanding many aspects of Truth. I personally find it very difficult to get a grasp on why God loves us at all, and to the extent He does is even more confounding. That mystery to me is very beautiful. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
SoCalLocal
|
|
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2009, 07:20:PM » |
|
And I just haven't heard of purgatory existing "scripturally." Only through the Catechism. Growing up it wasn't one of those things I was pressured to believe, or talked about much, for whatever reason that may be. Just because something isn't exlicit in the Bible doesn't mean we don't believe it. Many sects that don't agree with Purgatory DO believe in the Trinity. Yet nowhere in the Bible does the word Trinity appear. Surprisingly, without admitting it, a great many prots believe in Purgatory. Why else would they offer to "pray for your insert relation here" ? They believe Heaven or Hell with no stops in between. So what good are their prayers? If they're in Hell, it's too late; if they're in Heaven, they don't need them! You may also still be carrying around an image of Purgatory where you're punished, but not for eternity... The roots of the word are more related to refining or smelting. Consider someone refining a metal; what are they doing? Driving out impurities! Now, back to the original question... I DO have a problem with the concept that "One cannot do evil that good may come of it." My gut says pre-emptive vigilante strikes at abortion doctors would end the problem for once and for all. Face it: if you know performing a certain act will get you killed - suddenly, without warning, without goodbyes, and probably quite painfully - you'd just plain not do it! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Gender:
Personality type: Choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, and sanguine; but mostly melancholic.
Posts: 3,426
To know Him is to love Him.
|
|
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2009, 07:25:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
fish fish squared. (fish^2) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I n
N omine
P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever." [Daniel 2:44] http://www.wftsradio.com/
|
|
|
Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES
Posts: 11,153
|
|
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 07:28:PM » |
|
Purgatory is a new word, but the concept it represents is found in the Bible: In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more. And I just haven't heard of purgatory existing "scripturally." Only through the Catechism. Growing up it wasn't one of those things I was pressured to believe, or talked about much, for whatever reason that may be. Many have weak faith and do not like to find disagreements with others, so they ignore them. Those who are so mindful of the wills of men and so dismissive of the will of God will not be happy. They too will get what they want: only men away from God. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Herr_Mannelig
HIC SVNT SICARI SANCTIMONIALES
Posts: 11,153
|
|
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2009, 07:29:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
fish fish squared. (fish^2) Use standard notation: Fish 2 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Gender:
Personality type: Choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, and sanguine; but mostly melancholic.
Posts: 3,426
To know Him is to love Him.
|
|
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 07:32:PM » |
|
I disagree with the Modernist heterodoxy.
fish fish squared. (fish^2) Use standard notation: Fish 2fish^2 is how it could be entered into a calculator. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I n
N omine
P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever." [Daniel 2:44] http://www.wftsradio.com/
|
|
|
|
