The Church fathers on women

[Metatron]

Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women (http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-womans-place-in-christianity.htm), such as:
Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

Tertullian (160?-220?): "Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."

Ambrose (339-97): "Adam was deceived by Eve, not Eve by Adam... it is right that he whom that woman induced to sin should assume the role of guide lest he fall again through feminine instability."

Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."

Pope Gregory I (540-604): "Woman is slow in understanding and her unstable and naive mind renders her by way of natural weakness to the necessity of a strong hand in her husband. Her 'use' is two fold; [carnal] sex and motherhood."

Thomas Aquinas (1225-74): "[Woman] was made only to assist with procreation."

I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?

Metatron

[Vetus Ordo]

I don't know if these quotes were taken out of context or simply distorted. Given your source (atheism.about.com), I'd be suspicious.

Nevertheless, you should know that the western views on gender equality are clearly not christian in any way. They're perverse and promote a gender war that is detrimental to rightful social order, sane families and healthy societies.

Although these quotes you've shown may have been distorted, I pretty much agree with the message that they're trying to convey, even if I wouldn't use the exact same words.

[Augstine Baker]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

[Jacafamala]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

[WanderingPenitent]

Tertullian was an idiot.

Augustine is correct but should not be taken out of context. God became incarnate as a Man, but that does not mean no reverence is given to Mary, whom all women are meant to imitate. Augustine is talking of whether a Man should seek to be like a Woman or like God. Men should be masculine for it is Manliness, from a man's concern, that is effectively the image of God. Likewise women are meant to be like women, not men. And the word "helpmate" is a more accurate translation of the word in Genesis than, say, "servant" is. She is there to help him in the way a Deacon is there to help a Priest, or Queen is there to help a King. An even better model might be that of the relationship between ship and crew (appropriately ship's are always referred to as 'she').

Ambrose is talking about Feminine instability and Masculine carelessness. Adam had charge over Eve and did not exercise that responsibility. He is just as much at fault. He should have watched over her rather than left his carelessness completely in her hands. Likewise, she should have been honest with him and not taken complete control of the situation. It was a dysfunction of what was meant to be a perfectly functional partnership.

In response to St. Gregory, he is referring to a woman's role in distinction from a man's role in the family. In comparison you could say that the man's role is merely protective and that of a provider. This is accurate, but not fair. In other words, this statement is a bit out of context.

And Thomas Aquinas is correct. We did not need the distinction of sexes, but God created the distinction so that we may multiply. This does not mean that women are worth less than men, just that their distinction does not make them worth more, at least not in itself. Even the Blessed Virgin's "ability" to bare the Christ-child did not make her special, it was her willingness to do so, as well as God's Will that she complied with.


In the end, it's best not to take most of these statements out of context. Atheist websites are the worst sites to go to because they are too quick to even admit their own bias. It is best to look for quotations from Catholic sites, or from the direct source (the latter especially).

[Augstine Baker]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

[Jacafamala]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.

[Augstine Baker]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.

Maybe you should read St. Paul again.

I've never written a single word in defense of the FSSP being co-located by design with SSPX chapels. Do planners do things like that?  Yes, but I'm not committed to the idea one way or another. 

[In nomine Patris]

I would like to point out the holiest person ever born, or that ever will be born, ever, was, is, a woman. The Blessed Virgin Mary. Just the plain facts here.

[ResiduumRevertetur]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

So you're saying what? Reform the reform? Get wimmens out of the sanctuary and the VII and Bugnini problem just melts away? Are you one of those Neos everyone's been warning me about? 

[Herr_Mannelig]

Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women

Controversial according to what standard?

This is modernism. Atheism appeals to whatever popular morals are in place at the time, regardless of reason. Atheism, when used with logic, has some very different conclusions.

[Jacafamala]

A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.

Maybe you should read St. Paul again.

I've never written a single word in defense of the FSSP being co-located by design with SSPX chapels. Do planners do things like that?  Yes, but I'm not committed to the idea one way or another. 

What in particular? I read St. Paul's epistles all the time. There's nothing I'd disagree with. Please show me what you think I'd disagree with. I do however disagree with your inflammatory statement about women wrecking the church, although I'd agree they have no place on the altar or in the clergy.

If it weren't for the women in my church, there wouldn't be any celebrations. No community. They do all the work that way. There'd just be the Mass then everyone would go home.

It must have been someone else in the thread on Mexico, sorry.

[glgas]

Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women (http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-womans-place-in-christianity.htm), such as:
Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

One always should be cautious of quotations without exact references. The writer does not want you to read the text in context.

As for the women the Church always venerated the Blessed Virgin, and many female Saints: St. Prisca, St Agnes, St Martina,  St Agatha, St Dorothea, St Scholastica,   just from January and February.

Here are two books from Tertullian himself, to see his view of women (read them to prevent such immature statements that Tertullian is idiot) :

To His wife, Tertullian
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0404.htm

The Passion of the Holy Martyrs Perpetua and Felicity, Tertullian
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0324.htm

It is true that until the 20th Century the common view was that women (and not men) are the source of strong sexual desire, and temptation; and as a matter of fact many women were uneducated. The theology is science, it is a great danger if someone makes statments with full usurped authority without proper knowledge of the topic.

[Anastasia]

The first quote, I think, part of a longer work that dealt with humility and original sin, so presumably, men are also supposed to not take pride in the fact that they are men. The point was about pride, not condemning all women period, or it would condemn the Blessed Mother and all women saints as well. Also, Tertullian is not properly considered a Church father, I had read he was not made a saint even, due to some very dubious theological writings.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?

Could it be that they were wrong? Like folks were wrong when they believed the world was flat? St. Hildegarde of Bingen (the darling of the feminists) refers to the “weaker sex” and constantly belittles women in her writings. Yet she herself was a very learned woman, who lived in a patriarchal society that held such views. The Church Fathers are not infallible and women are equal in dignity to men - THAT is the Church's view on this matter. I, too, am a bit suspicious of about atheism.com (even though I subscribe to it! LOL). Better to read the Church Fathers like we read the Bible - in full and in context.

- Lisa