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Author Topic: Obsequium religiosum: Religious submission to the authentic magisterium  (Read 1170 times)
Clare Brigid
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Personality type: Melancholic/choleric; INFJ
Posts: 2,779


Do whatever He tells you.


« on: December 15, 2013, 06:50:AM »

I propose a discussion of the obsequium religiosum, i.e., the duty of the faithful to give religious submission of intellect and will to the authentic magisterium.  I would like to open the discussion with this article by Dr. William E. May, which I have taken from Ignatius Insight.

Discussion of this issue is especially necessary now because of the objections many traditionalists have voiced in response to the apostolic exhortation of Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium.

Authority and Dissent in the Catholic Church | Dr. William E. May | IgnatiusInsight.com

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/wmay_authority_nov06.asp

What is the role of the Church as moral teacher, and what is the obligation on the part of the faithful (including the pope, bishops, theologians, and ordinary laypeople) to choose in accordance with the moral norms proposed by the Church's teaching authority? Can dissent from such teaching be legitimate? To answer these questions it will be useful to consider

1. teaching authority in the Church;
2. the ways in which this authority is exercised;
3. whether specific moral norms have been taught infallibly by the Church's teaching authority;
4. the kind of response due to moral teachings that have not been proposed infallibly;
5. the question of dissent.

1. Teaching authority (magisterium) within the Church

As scholars such as the late great Dominican theologian, Yves Cardinal Congar, have noted, the term magisterium has such a long history and during the Middle Ages it referred to the teaching authority proper to theologians, i.e., those who by study and diligence have achieved some understanding of the truths of the faith and their relationship to truths that can be known without the light of faith. [1]

But today this term has a very precise meaning, one given it by the Church herself in her understanding of herself as the pillar and ground of truth (see Tim 3:15) against which the gates of hell cannot prevail (Mt 16:18; Gal 1:8), and as the community to which Christ himself has entrusted his saving word and work. According to her own understanding of the term, the Church teaches that the magisterium is the authority to teach, in the name of Christ, the truths of Christian faith and life (morals) and all that is necessary and/or useful for the proclamation and defense of these truths (see Dei verbum, 8). This teaching authority is vested in the college of bishops under the headship of the chief bishop, the Roman Pontiff, the "concrete center of unity and head of the whole episcopate," [2] the successor of the Apostle Peter (see Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, 22; Vatican Council I, DS 3065-3074).

This magisterium, moreover, demands assent to its teachings by the faithful in virtue of the divine authority vested in it and not simply in virtue of the contents of the message it teaches (Vatican Council I, DS 3020). It has authority in teaching all the faithful in keeping with the inner constitution of the Church itself (Lumen gentium, 23-24). Its teaching, moreover, is an exercise of its pastoral office, its munus (a term much richer in connotation than our English "office," connoting a privileged honor and mission [3]), to care for the "souls" of all the faithful, i.e., to safeguard the divine life within them.

2. The different ways in which the magisterium is exercised

At times the magisterium proposes matters of faith and morals infallibly, i.e., with the assurance that what is proposed is absolutely irreformable and a matter to be held definitively by the faithful. At other times the magisterium proposes matters of faith and morals authoritatively and as true, but not in such wise that the matter proposed is to be held definitively and absolutely. But still the matter proposed is to be held by the faithful and to be held as true. Note that the proper way to speak of teachings proposed in this way is to say that they are authoritatively taught; it is not proper to say that they are fallibly taught.

A. Infallibly proposed teachings

The magisterium can propose matters infallibly in two different ways. First, a matter of faith or morals can be solemnly defined by an ecumenical council or by the Roman Pontiff when, "as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, he . . . proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals" (Vatican I, DS 3074). Secondly, and this is most important to recognize, the magisterium can propose matters of faith or morals infallibly in the ordinary, day-to-day exercise of its authority when specific conditions are fulfilled. These conditions are clearly stated in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium). In a centrally important passage of that document the Council Fathers declared:

Although the bishops individually do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim the teaching of Christ infallibly, even when they are dispersed throughout the world, provided that they remain in communion with each other and with the successor of Peter and that in authoritatively teaching on a matter of faith and morals they agree in one judgment as that to be held definitively (25).

This teaching of Vatican II on the infallible character of authoritative magisterial teaching in the day-to-day or ordinary exercise of its authority was by no means a novel teaching of Vatican II. It had been set forth in the 1917 Codex Iuris Canonici (c. 1323, #2), a canon repeated as canon 74, #2 in the new Codex Iuris Canonici promulgated in 1983, and drawn almost word for word from Vatican I's solemn teaching on the same matter (cf. DS 3011). Canon 749, #2 in the new Codex reads as follows: "The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching . . . when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together with the same Roman Pontiff authentically (or authoritatively) teach matters of faith or morals, and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held."

This key teaching of Lumen gentium makes it quite clear that the magisterium can (and does) propose teachings on moral matters when the conditions so clearly described are met.

B. Teachings authoritatively but not infallibly proposed

The magisterium, moreover, is an authoritative teacher of Catholic faith and morals when it exercises its teaching authority in a manner that is not clearly intended to be infallible. When the bishops teach on matters of faith and morals in their capacity as bishops, they "speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent (obsequium religiosum) of soul. This religious submission of will and mind must be shown in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. That is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme teaching authority is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will" (Lumen gentium, 25). The meaning of this obsequium religiosum will be examined in more detail below, under #4.

3. Are some specific moral norms infallibly proposed by the magisterium?

Every Catholic theologian acknowledges that certain very general moral norms are infallibly proposed (e.g., one ought to love God and one's neighbor). But today a key claim made by a good number of Catholic theologians is that no specific moral norms have been infallibly taught; indeed, they claim that such specific moral norms (e.g., one ought never to commit adultery; one ought never intentionally to kill an innocent human being) cannot be taught infallibly.

Some theologians, for example, Charles E. Curran, appeal to the Code of Canon Law to support their claim. Thus Curran and several of his associates appealed in 1969 to paragraph 3 of canon 1323 of the old 1917 Code (in fact, they erroneously cited canon 1223, or perhaps this was a typographical error), which corresponds to paragraph 3 of canon 749 in the new 1983 Code. [4] This paragraph says that "No doctrine is to be understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated" (emphasis added). But appeal to this paragraph does not settle the matter. The paragraph to which Curran (and others) appeal is explicitly concerned with teachings infallibly defined; it is not concerned with teachings infallibly proposed by the ordinary, day-to-day exercise of the magisterium. Curran and others who deny that specific moral norms can be infallibly proposed never consider whether the conditions for teachings infallibly proposed in this way have been met. As we shall see, evidence supports the position that the core of Catholic moral teaching has been proposed in this way.

These theologians likewise contend that we come to know all specific moral norms inductively, by reflecting on shared human experiences in company with others. They then argue that, since "we can never exclude the possibility that future experience, hitherto unimagined, might put a moral problem into a new frame of reference which would call for a revision of a norm that, when formulated, could not have taken such experience into account," [5] norms of this kind cannot be universally true and hence cannot be fit subject matter of infallible teaching. Here I simply wish to point out that these theologians have not properly identified the way we come to know specific moral norms. As St. Thomas and the Catholic tradition hold, the truth of many specific moral norms, e.g., the precepts of the Decalogue, can be shown in the light of the primary principles of natural law. [6]

A final reason advanced by these theologians to support their claim that specific moral norms are rooted in the "concrete" nature of human beings, not in their "transcendental" or "metaphysical" nature, and that man's "concrete" nature is subject to radical change. This position, rooted in Rahnerian thought, ignores the fact that human nature cannot substantively change if men are to remain men and if Christ shared Adam's and our human nature. It also ignores the truth that the goods perfective of human persons, the goods to which we are ordered by our natural inclinations, the goods at stake in moral choices, are the same for us as they were for Adam, goods such as life itself, living in harmony and fellowship with others, knowledge of the truth, etc. [7]

On the other hand, many theologians today (and the whole body of theologians prior to Vatican Council II) recognize that the core of Catholic moral teaching, as set forth in the precepts of the Decalogue as these precepts have been and are understood within the Church itself, has been infallibly proposed by the ordinary, day-to-day exercise of the magisterium by bishops dispersed throughout the world yet in union with one another and with the Holy Father. For this magisterium has proposed, as a matter definitively to be held, that it is always gravely immoral intentionally to kill the innocent, to commit adultery (or fornication or sodomy), etc. This was the understanding of the Church Fathers, of medieval theologians such as Thomas Aquinas, etc. It was the firm teaching of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, and it was commonly taught by all theologians prior to Vatican II, as attested to in a remarkable text of Karl Rahner in his book Nature and Grace, published in English in 1963. Although he never formally repudiated what he had said in that book, Rahner subsequently claimed that the magisterium cannot infallibly teach specific moral norms insofar as they are concerned with man's concrete human nature. But, as we have seen, this view cannot be sustained. What caused Rahner to change his mind, apparently, was Humanae Vitae; for nothing in the text of the documents of Vatican II can be used to support this view.

Moreover, and this is very important, Pope John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae explicitly referred to the key passage in Lumen Gentium, 25, identifying the conditions under which the ordinary, day-to-day exercise of the magisterium can propose truths infallibly. He did so in affirming as solemnly as he could without making an ex cathedra pronouncement the truth of the Church's teaching on

a the absolute inviolability of innocent human life from intentional attack (Evangelium Vitae, 57),
b the intrinsically evil character of intentional abortion (Ibid., 62) and
c the intrinsically evil character of all forms of euthanasia or mercy killing (Ibid., 65).

4. The response due moral teachings authoritatively but not infallibly proposed

I have argued that the central core of Catholic moral teaching has been infallibly proposed by the ordinary magisterium. Even if one were to disagree with this argument (which I believe is sound), one must acknowledge that the magisterium does teach with a more than merely human authority on moral questions. Moreover, it proposes moral norms not as legalistic rules but as truths of Christian life. Moral teachings authoritatively but not infallibly proposed as true are binding upon the consciences of the faithful, including pope, bishops, theologians, and ordinary laypeople. All the faithful are to give these teachings a religious submission (obsequium religiosum) of will and mind. Teachings authoritatively proposed are proposed as true, not as opinions or "prudential guidelines."

Still, such teachings are not infallibly proposed; they are not proposed as "definitively to be held." This raises the question of the nature of the "religious submission" of will and mind and the question of dissent. Precisely what does this entail?

5. The nature of the "obsequium religiosum" and the question of dissent

It is interesting to note that the term "dissent" did not appear in theological literature prior to the end of Vatican Council II. The "approved" manuals to which the three bishops, who wanted Lumen gentium 25 to say something about the nature of the obsequium religiosum required for teaching authoritatively but not infallibly proposed, were referred did not speak of legitimate theological dissent from such teaching. [8] Rather, they recognized that a theologian (or other well-informed Catholic) might not in conscience be able to give internal assent to some teachings. They thus spoke of "withholding assent" and raising questions, but this is a far cry from "dissent."

The Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has addressed this matter. It recognized that theologians (and others) might question not only the form but even the substantive content of some authoritatively proposed magisterial teachings. It held that it is permissible in such instances to withhold assent, to raise questions (and present them to the magisterium), to discuss the issues with other theologians (and be humble enough to accept criticism of one's own views by them). Theologians (and others) can propose their views as hypotheses to be considered and tested by other theologians and ultimately to be judged by those who have, within the Church, the solemn obligation of settling disputes and speaking the mind of Christ.

But it taught one is not giving a true obsequium religiosum if one dissents from magisterial teaching and proposes one's own position as a position that the faithful are at liberty to follow, substituting it for the teaching of the magisterium. But this is precisely what has been occurring. Dissent of this kind is not compatible with the obsequium religiosum. In fact, those who dissent in this way really usurp the teaching office of bishops and popes. Theologians, insofar as they are theologians, are not pastors in the Church. When they instruct the faithful that the teachings of those who are pastors in the Church (the pope and bishops) are false and that the faithful can put those teachings aside and put in their place their own theological opinions, they are harming the Church and arrogantly assuming for themselves the pastoral role of pope and bishops.

Dissent, understood in this sense, is thus completely incompatible with the obsequium religiosum required for teachings authoritatively but not infallibly proposed.

This article originally appeared in the May/June 2000 issue of Catholic Dossier.

Endnotes:

[1] Yves M J. Congar, O.P., "Pour une histoire du term 'magisterium,'" Revue des sciences philosophiques et théologiques 60 91976, 85-96, and "Bref historique des formes du 'magistère' et des ses relations avec les docteurs," Ibid., 99-112.
[2] See Karl Rahner, S.J., "Magisterium," in Sacramentum Mundi, 3.352.
[3] On the rich meaning of this term see Janet Smith, "The Munus of Transmitting Human Life: A New Approach to Humanae Vitae," The Thomist 54 (1990) 385-427.
[4] See Charles E. Curran et al., Dissent In and For the Church: Theologians and Humanae Vitae (New York: Sheed and Ward, Inc., 1989), p. 63.
[5] Francis Sullivan, S.J., Magisterium: Teaching Authority in the Church (New York: Paulist, 1983), pp. 150-151. Sullivan, himself not a moral theologian, here summarizes the thought of "main stream" moral theologians, among whom he includes Curran, Franz Bockie, Bruno Schuler, Bernard Haring, and others who accept this view.
[6] See St. Thomas, Summa theologiae, 1a-2ae, Q. 100, a. 3; see also 1a-2ae, Q. 94, a. 8. See also Patrick Lee, "The Permanence of the Ten Commandments: St. Thomas and His Modern Commentators," Theological Studies 42 (1981).
[7] See St. Thomas, Summa theologiae, 1a-2ae, Q. 94, a. 2.
[8] On this see Germain Grisez, The Way of the Lord Jesus, Vol. 1, Christian Moral Principles, chapter 36, especially pp. 873-874.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:31:AM by Clare Brigid » Logged

"Now I want you to have confidence in me and believe my word.  It is not our perfection which is to dazzle God, Who is surrounded by myriads of angels.  No, it is our misery, our wretchedness avowed which draws down His Mercy. All God's dealings with us are a consequence of His Mercy (Mercy is God's goodness touched by the sight of misery).  And that is why the great Saint Paul says, let others go to God leaning on the perfection of their life (as the Pharisee), "for me, I take glory in my infirmities that my strength may be Christ's virtue." If you could only once understand that you are never dearer to God, never glorify Him more than when in the full realization of your misery and unworthiness, you gaze at His infinite goodness and cast yourself on his bosom, believing in faith that His Mercy is infinitely greater than your misery . . . Now the triumph of his grace is when it raises up the miserable and impure . . . ." -- Bl. Columba Marmion
Clare Brigid
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Personality type: Melancholic/choleric; INFJ
Posts: 2,779


Do whatever He tells you.


« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 08:00:AM »

Dr. May's article cites an Instruction of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Donum Veritatis:  On the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian.  (I have added a hyperlink to the title.  Click on it to read it.)

If theologians are bound not to oppose their views to the authentic magisterium of the pope or bishops in union with him, and not to oppose the authentic magisterium rashly or publicly, then, a fortiori, we who are not theologians, who do not possess their expertise or share their duties of state, should refrain from doing so.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:02:AM by Clare Brigid » Logged

"Now I want you to have confidence in me and believe my word.  It is not our perfection which is to dazzle God, Who is surrounded by myriads of angels.  No, it is our misery, our wretchedness avowed which draws down His Mercy. All God's dealings with us are a consequence of His Mercy (Mercy is God's goodness touched by the sight of misery).  And that is why the great Saint Paul says, let others go to God leaning on the perfection of their life (as the Pharisee), "for me, I take glory in my infirmities that my strength may be Christ's virtue." If you could only once understand that you are never dearer to God, never glorify Him more than when in the full realization of your misery and unworthiness, you gaze at His infinite goodness and cast yourself on his bosom, believing in faith that His Mercy is infinitely greater than your misery . . . Now the triumph of his grace is when it raises up the miserable and impure . . . ." -- Bl. Columba Marmion
maldon
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Posts: 1,219



« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 01:38:PM »

Clare,

I think this is a good and timely topic. My first reaction is that I agree with the writer and with the conclusion you have drawn. However, I think there is a problem, not with "obsequium religiosum," nor with the notion of the teaching authority residing in pope and in bishops in communion with the pope, but in the fact that one has to live 'obsequium religiosum' to an actual, real, identifiable teaching. And in our world and in out context, these teachings simply do not exist. The pope says one thing today and the opposite tomorrow. What does he mean? He makes unspecified attacks against neopelagians, without specifying who he means. It is not good enough to speak vaguely on issues of economics, or of the moral controversies of the day. He has to deliver an actual teaching. His choice of "exhortation" is absolutely perfect for him, because it is is the pastoral, preaching, encouraging/discouraging sort of forum he thrives in, as opposed to the doctrinal, encyclical type of document. Right now, love him or hate him, no one really knows what he means about anything, except perhaps, that Christians should be more focused on the corporal works of mercy than heretofore. Even so, that is an encouragement to act a certain way, not a teaching. So, we have had a string of popes with zero teaching. John Paul II had a few teaching moments and issues, notably on the Life issues and on the impossibility of female ordination. We have had no teaching from Benedict XVI. And I doubt we will get any from Francis. As for the bishops, their ability to teach is dependent on the pope. They cannot really be asked to be teaching in communion with a pope who delivers no teaching. Therefore, each says as he wishes. And the pope continues to say as he wishes, and the faithful will continue to listen to what they want and to ignore what they do not like, until a teaching authority is re-established in the Catholic Church. Right now, clearly some in the Vatican know this and have mistakenly come to think that teaching can be divorced from authority. For example, in the case of the FFI, there are authoritative decisions being made that are entirely divorced from anything remotely conceivable as a definitive teaching on anything. The good clerics in Rome will soon learn that this is not possible. It may be desirable for liberals, because liberals can only hope to get what they want by having authority stamped onto decisions lacking any teaching, because no teaching will support a liberal agenda in the Church. And, as we have seen over the last 50+ years, the extent to which a pope will allow this situation to continue is the extent to which it will continue. Trends will continue until crisis causes a change, says a financial writer I have read. If I were those FFI guys, the good ones, I would leave the FFI, and go quietly to the FSSP and others of the same kind. Quietly, mind you. Not SSPX, because the liberals win again in that situation, for trads will get separated out of the legitimate living structure of the Church. So they and any others who were drawn to them need to fill up the other, existing seminaries. One day, the truth will appear as it is appearing in France: trad and trad-friendly priests will become majority in a shrunk Catholic Church. In a liberal parish, you will see thousands of parishioners, and no seminarians. But it takes priests to run the Church. One day, trad and trad-friendly priests will have the power to choose a pope, and they will choose one of their own. That is when the SSPX will be returned, and that is when we will get the much-touted Springtime.
Sorry for the outburst, Clare!
So yes, the theory is good. It requires a teacher and teachings. We have neither at the moment. So it is every man for himself now, interpreting VII and all Councils the way Protestants interpret the Bible.
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Clare Brigid
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Personality type: Melancholic/choleric; INFJ
Posts: 2,779


Do whatever He tells you.


« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 01:49:PM »

Sorry for the outburst, Clare!

You made some important points, Maldon.  I don't consider your post to be an outburst.  Perhaps you were gnashing your teeth as you typed?  It's hard to tell.   Sticking tongue out at you
Quote
So yes, the theory is good. It requires a teacher and teachings. We have neither at the moment.

I do think you have overstated your case.  Pope Francis teaches nothing in Evangelii Gaudium?  It may be that you intend definitive teaching, but that is not required for there to be an exercise of the authentic magisterium.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:51:PM by Clare Brigid » Logged

"Now I want you to have confidence in me and believe my word.  It is not our perfection which is to dazzle God, Who is surrounded by myriads of angels.  No, it is our misery, our wretchedness avowed which draws down His Mercy. All God's dealings with us are a consequence of His Mercy (Mercy is God's goodness touched by the sight of misery).  And that is why the great Saint Paul says, let others go to God leaning on the perfection of their life (as the Pharisee), "for me, I take glory in my infirmities that my strength may be Christ's virtue." If you could only once understand that you are never dearer to God, never glorify Him more than when in the full realization of your misery and unworthiness, you gaze at His infinite goodness and cast yourself on his bosom, believing in faith that His Mercy is infinitely greater than your misery . . . Now the triumph of his grace is when it raises up the miserable and impure . . . ." -- Bl. Columba Marmion
maldon
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Posts: 1,219



« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 02:38:PM »

Thank you, Clare.

I agree that according to the distinction being made between 'teaching' and 'definitive teaching' I have overstated my case.

Still, when I think about it, I am confronted with the same problem: what kind of teaching is it if it not definitive? And by 'definitive' here, I do not mean dogmatic or ex cathedra. I just mean specific. This is the crux of the problem for me. It if it not clear or specific, it is an exhortation, an encouragement, something rhetorical, designed to help, to give light, to guide, but not to teach. And if it is not teaching, it cannot be held. It can be listened to, acted upon, etc. but not obeyed submissively. If it were so, we would have to listen to every single thing the pope said every day and go nuts basically trying to sift out the teaching from the jokes. And quite frankly, I haven't the time. Teaching has to be centered on something specific. Maybe the Catechism. Even that, long-winded as it is, is specific and expressed to teach. The rest is media hype at worst, rhetorical-pastoral exhortation at best. No?
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Clare Brigid
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Personality type: Melancholic/choleric; INFJ
Posts: 2,779


Do whatever He tells you.


« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 03:30:PM »

Thank you, Clare.

I agree that according to the distinction being made between 'teaching' and 'definitive teaching' I have overstated my case.

Still, when I think about it, I am confronted with the same problem: what kind of teaching is it if it not definitive?

You're right to be uncertain about what precisely is being taught.  Cardinal Burke made comments about the apostolic exhortation in the last several days; he said much the same thing.  He went so far as to say he does not think it was meant to be part of the papal magisterium.  I must respect the cardinal's opinion, but I am not sure about that.  Here is the interview.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edq69fJLnXo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edq69fJLnXo</a>
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"Now I want you to have confidence in me and believe my word.  It is not our perfection which is to dazzle God, Who is surrounded by myriads of angels.  No, it is our misery, our wretchedness avowed which draws down His Mercy. All God's dealings with us are a consequence of His Mercy (Mercy is God's goodness touched by the sight of misery).  And that is why the great Saint Paul says, let others go to God leaning on the perfection of their life (as the Pharisee), "for me, I take glory in my infirmities that my strength may be Christ's virtue." If you could only once understand that you are never dearer to God, never glorify Him more than when in the full realization of your misery and unworthiness, you gaze at His infinite goodness and cast yourself on his bosom, believing in faith that His Mercy is infinitely greater than your misery . . . Now the triumph of his grace is when it raises up the miserable and impure . . . ." -- Bl. Columba Marmion
maldon
Member

Posts: 1,219



« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 10:24:PM »

Clare,

I am all in favor of Card. Burke, but 55 mins is a lot of homework for me. But I will try to make the time to listen to it over the course of the week. In the meantime, I have an example of one of these non-teaching teaching moments of the pope, who was responding to criticism of his statements on the economy. As you know, as part of his reply, he said "“There is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church. I wasn’t speaking from a technical point of view, what I was trying to do was to give a picture of what is going on. "

There it is. So, here is the dilemma. And mind you, I love this pope's works-of-mercy approach. But here is the dilemma: I get an Apostolic Exhortation in my hands. Am I to consider it as papal teaching, papal exhortation, authoritative teaching, definitive teaching, partly some or all of the above, or none of the above. Notice, all he was trying to do was to "give a picture of what is going on." In my books, that does not constitute a teaching, or anything authoritative, or definitive. It is personal analysis, personal theological economics theory.

This is partly Pope Benedict's fault. He was the first one to start publishing books as "personal reflections," instead of as papal documents. Then Pope Francis gave a notorious interview in which he spoke as himself and not as pope. Now we have exhortations that sound like modern theology, and the sad fact is that modern theology sounds terrible. The man has to choose: preach the Gospel or engage in an academic discussion. He, in the manner of the modern theologian, does half-half. His document would not stand a chance as an academic argumentative document, grounded in research and academic methodology. This would not be a problem for me if his intent were to preach. As a preacher, he is much better, much more comfortable, but he is rhetorically loose. He seems to like paradox, shocking associations and surprising answers. Therefore I think he should not write any documents that could be considered as teaching, per se. He should limit himself to what he is good at: preaching. It is when he wants to be taken as a teacher, as a theorist, as one with a defined opinion on matters of faith and morals that he has a problem, because his style is so vague.

So I still say that obsequium only works when there is clarity of teaching. And right now, we have the opposite. So obsequium cannot be imposed because its object cannot be found.
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DeoGratias72
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Posts: 1,041


« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 10:28:PM »

Thank you, Clare.

I agree that according to the distinction being made between 'teaching' and 'definitive teaching' I have overstated my case.

Still, when I think about it, I am confronted with the same problem: what kind of teaching is it if it not definitive?

You're right to be uncertain about what precisely is being taught.  Cardinal Burke made comments about the apostolic exhortation in the last several days; he said much the same thing.  He went so far as to say he does not think it was meant to be part of the papal magisterium.  I must respect the cardinal's opinion, but I am not sure about that.  Here is the interview.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edq69fJLnXo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edq69fJLnXo</a>


Thanks for the video Clare.
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Clare Brigid
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Posts: 2,779


Do whatever He tells you.


« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2013, 05:04:AM »

So I still say that obsequium only works when there is clarity of teaching. And right now, we have the opposite. So obsequium cannot be imposed because its object cannot be found.

What puzzles me is that neo-cons and trads find it specific enough to criticize, but too vague to follow.
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"Now I want you to have confidence in me and believe my word.  It is not our perfection which is to dazzle God, Who is surrounded by myriads of angels.  No, it is our misery, our wretchedness avowed which draws down His Mercy. All God's dealings with us are a consequence of His Mercy (Mercy is God's goodness touched by the sight of misery).  And that is why the great Saint Paul says, let others go to God leaning on the perfection of their life (as the Pharisee), "for me, I take glory in my infirmities that my strength may be Christ's virtue." If you could only once understand that you are never dearer to God, never glorify Him more than when in the full realization of your misery and unworthiness, you gaze at His infinite goodness and cast yourself on his bosom, believing in faith that His Mercy is infinitely greater than your misery . . . Now the triumph of his grace is when it raises up the miserable and impure . . . ." -- Bl. Columba Marmion
jonbhorton
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Location: Siberia
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Can no longer participate here, ever.


« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2013, 07:09:AM »

I believe Michael Davies followed the line of, " I don't get it. I'll try to understand it." But unless teaching is infallibly defined, how on earth can one give assent in good conscience to that which is not understood? Moreover, what if that teaching is apparently in contradiction to previous, clearer teaching?

Personally, I do not trust the majority of Bishops nor do I trust the personage of Pope Francis to 1) teach correctly 2) teach clearly.

I'd prefer #2 first as it would allow an understanding of #1, to which I am apparently to give assent.

As for now, I'll stick with what I know to be defined and all other things get shrugged off, such as this so-called "right" to Tylenol, Welfare, and illegally entering another country vs fixing one's own.
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"It makes the consuls base: and my soul aches
To know, when two authorities are up,
Neither supreme, how soon confusion
May enter 'twixt the gap of both and take
The one by the other." - Coriolanus, Act 3, Scene 1
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The Immaculata must be the Queen of all people. Whoever does not submit to her rule will perish.
- St. Maximilian Kolbe
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"There is no greater enemy of the Immaculata and her Knighthood than today’s Ecumenism which every Knight must not only fight against, but also neutralize through diametrically opposed action and ultimately destroy"
(Saint Maximilian Maria Kolbe) ~ Entry of Diary dated April 23, 1933. Cited from The Immaculata Our Ideal, Father Karl Stehlin [Warsaw: Te Deum, 2005], p.37.
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