Pope Benedict, Cardinals discuss lifting excommunications on Lefebvrists, free use of Latin missal

[Mark]

Everyone in my town knows how ultra-conservative even the Novus Ordo Masses are in Lincoln, and that they have the Latin Mass widely available also. You know, you'd think even the numbskulls would 'get it' by now, good grief!

 

I read that the traditional carmelite monastery in Cody, WY already has 7 monks and 35 men interested in joining.  They began in 2003 and have a goal of 30 monks.  They will meet their goals soon.

 

Oh Ya! I had talked to a guy who has been accepted to that monestary and will go there either in May or in July. That place is about a day's drive from me.

[mattc]

In addition, the Pope and the Cardinals discussed whether or not they may declare a full amnesty for the free use of Pope V's Latin missal...

I sure hope that this becomes true. It may cause some bishops to be very cranky when Latin Mass parishes seem to be doing better than Novus Ordo ones for some mysterious reason.

I know what you mean. We have almost no vocations in our Diocese in Nerbraksa - and here they actually wonder how the diocese of Lincoln is producing so many vocations, in fact, the top ones in the nation! (Lincoln permits no female altar boys and have the Latin Mass available plus contain the American seminary of the FSSP).

Everyone in my town knows how ultra-conservative even the Novus Ordo Masses are in Lincoln, and that they have the Latin Mass widely available also. You know, you'd think even the numbskulls would 'get it' by now, good grief!

 Liberal parishes don't want *those* types of vocations.  They want more liberal priests, but they can't seem to find any.  Instead, I hear more talk about how letting women become priests will solve the problem.  I guess they see a female priesthood as the solution to the problem.  Who needs those mean old men anyway?!?
 
 Of course, my solution is to kick all the liberals out and reclaim the property for Tradition.  Such a waste of space as it currently stands.
 

[lumengentleman]

A few thoughts come to mind.

 

1) It would not be a bad thing at all for Rome to lift the excommunications; at least then people wouldn't be able to dismiss the SSPX with the all-too easy "schismatic" dismissal - they'd have to listen

 

2) 99.9% of Novus Ordo priests, young and old, cannot seem to follow the rubrics of the Novus Ordo Missae without improvising, leaving things out, being sloppy, etc. - how will it help things to release the Missal of Pius V into their hands?  This will only give rise to a new problem: people thinking and saying "yeah, I go to the traditional Mass," when in reality they go to a badly butchered cross between the traditional and Novus Ordo Mass; people won't understand that it's not "traditional" to receive communion in the hand, even if the Mass was said facing the altar.

 

3) The fact that Rome has to even think about whether or not to lift the SSPX excommunications makes me mad; they can lift the excommunications from the Eastern Orthodox, who deny our dogmas and reject the primacy of the pope, but they have to think long and hard about how to treat the SSPX?!  That's betrayal.

 

4) The Mass alone will not solve anything.  Even if every diocesan parish in my town started offering the Mass of Pius V tomorrow, and offered it every day, I still would not attend.  Why?  For the same reason I don't attend the indult unless I have to.  The teaching isn't free of modernism, and the other sacraments are not offered in the Traditional manner.  Freeing the True Mass won't cause priests to suddenly be formed according to Traditional formation.

 

5) This could all be deadly to the SSPX.  Once Catholics can get the Traditional Mass anywhere in their diocese, perhaps there won't be as much demand for the SSPX.  Hard to tell.  But I have a feeling that even a lot of Traditionalists don't "get" that our cause is about more than just the Mass; if I could go to a TLM offered in the morning by a diocesan parish up the street, or else wait until 2:30 PM for our SSPX priest to come into town and say his Mass 45 minutes away from me, which would I do?  Would I take the easy way, or continue suffering minor inconveniece for the sake of the whole "traditionalist" package?

[Jarrod_D]

The SSPX guys were up in arms from day 1 after vII. I think they see that there is considerably more faith among those attached to the traditional rite than in the novus ordo crowd. I think with the trends how they are, there will inevitably be a course correction and the traditional mass will get the blanket approval it should never have lost.

 

Vatican II ran from 1962-1965 ... SSPX was started in 1970

 

99.9% of Novus Ordo priests, young and old, cannot seem to follow the rubrics of the Novus Ordo Missae without improvising, leaving things out, being sloppy, etc. - how will it help things to release the Missal of Pius V into their hands? This will only give rise to a new problem: people thinking and saying "yeah, I go to the traditional Mass," when in reality they go to a badly butchered traditional Mass; people won't understand that it's not "traditional" to receive communion in the hand, even if the Mass was said facing the altar.

 

I have raised this very same concern many of times; but I am told that those priests who want to say the Tridentine mass go out of their way to learn it and follow its rubrics ... Problem is ... there is no policing. What we get is priests who are not trained for this mass; celebrating it!  4 years of Seminary are replaced by a 20-page "how to" manual ...

 

No one would ever dream of this being done for the Eastern rites! "Sure anyone can do the mass of St. Basil ..."

 

Not to mention that most priests (my novus ordo pastor included) do not know Latin. How is he to celebrate a Latin Mass if he does not even know how to pronounce the words?

 

What you will get, if you give a universal indult is another form of bastardized mass: a tradous ordo missae. I know, because at the indult parish I am at, I already get it! All kinds of abuse ... "well just skip this today"  "I think the novus ordo reading is better"

 

grr ...

 

Jarrod

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark]

a tradous ordo missae.  

 

 

 

 LOL, that caught me off guard, I like that phrase.

 

 

 

 

[lumengentleman]

The SSPX guys were up in arms from day 1 after vII. I think they see that there is considerably more faith among those attached to the traditional rite than in the novus ordo crowd. I think with the trends how they are, there will inevitably be a course correction and the traditional mass will get the blanket approval it should never have lost.

 

Vatican II ran from 1962-1965 ... SSPX was started in 1970

 

True.  But, of course, the SSPX founder, Lefebvre, was certainly up in arms from the opening of the council - and he made no secret of the fact.

 

Not to mention that most priests (my novus ordo pastor included) do not know Latin. How is he to celebrate a Latin Mass if he does not even know how to pronounce the words?

 

What you will get, if you give a universal indult is another form of bastardized mass: a tradous ordo missae. I know, because at the indult parish I am at, I already get it! All kinds of abuse ... "well just skip this today"  "I think the novus ordo reading is better"

 

Exactly.

 

Well, except for the not knowing Latin part.  I know of a few priests (Fr. Gruner among them) who really struggle with the Latin, and trip all over it during the Mass - but on they go.

 

But like you, I'm more worried about "well, I don't know what this rubric is for, so let's just drop it," "the Novus Ordo Gospel was more relevant today so we'll use that," "oh sure, go ahead and receive communion standing and in the hand," "no, there's no need to wear a veil," "jeans?  sure, wear 'em if you got 'em."

 

In the end you'll have a bunch of Novus Ordo-ites running around telling everyone, "yeah, we're traditionalists - we go to the traditional latin mass!"

[FifthMark]

As an example of the above, I attend what was previously the Indult (now the ICK) Traditional Mass in St. Louis once (out of curiosity) and was shocked when the archdiocesan priest announced that, due to his limited mobility, there would be male "extraordinary ministers of Communion" that day and then proceeded to warn against anyone writing the Archbishop to complain.  I think the sound of my palm slapping against my forehead reverberated in the sanctuary for at least a few seconds.

[spasiisochrani]

As an example of the above, I attend what was previously the Indult (now the ICK) Traditional Mass in St. Louis once (out of curiosity) and was shocked when the archdiocesan priest announced that, due to his limited mobility, there would be male "extraordinary ministers of Communion" that day and then proceeded to warn against anyone writing the Archbishop to complain.  I think the sound of my palm slapping against my forehead reverberated in the sanctuary for at least a few seconds.

 

So, if he was too sick to distribute Holy Communion himself, and no other priests were available to do so, what should he have done?  Made everyone go without?  Isn't this a truly "extraordinary" situation in which the use of an "extraordinary minister" of Holy Communion might be justified?

[Adoremus_In_Aeternum]

 

 

So, if he was too sick to distribute Holy Communion himself, and no other priests were available to do so, what should he have done?  Made everyone go without?  Isn't this a truly "extraordinary" situation in which the use of an "extraordinary minister" of Holy Communion might be justified?

 

How limited was his mobility? The TLM is not a picnic. A priest can sit down in the NO, not so in the TLM. Even if the priest was in a wheelchair, I am sure no one in that church would have objected to making a single file line and taking communion one at a time.

 

This is the problem with some indults. Their bishops see it as a way to "recapture" traditionalists for the NO instead of ministering to them.

[ernestus]

 

 

So, if he was too sick to distribute Holy Communion himself, and no other priests were available to do so, what should he have done?  Made everyone go without?  Isn't this a truly "extraordinary" situation in which the use of an "extraordinary minister" of Holy Communion might be justified?

 

How limited was his mobility? The TLM is not a picnic. A priest can sit down in the NO, not so in the TLM. Even if the priest was in a wheelchair, I am sure no one in that church would have objected to making a single file line and taking communion one at a time.

 

This is the problem with some indults. Their bishops see it as a way to "recapture" traditionalists for the NO instead of ministering to them.

We once had an old, frail priest in his 80's, with bad knees and couldn't distribute communion the normal way, so the altar boys setup a chair for the priest and a kneeler for the communicants when it was time. While it took longer to do this, everyone saw that this was how it had to be. No one complained.