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Author Topic: Sorry, Vox, I am not meaning to cause problems by this  (Read 4991 times)
Charlemagne
Guest
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2006, 10:41:AM »

Wasn't it originally the church that encouraged the education of women way before everyone else was doing it, I'm sure I read that somewhere.  Maybe the line is drawn at advanced education of the type tailored for making you suitable for certain kinds of work.
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Archbishop_10K
Guest
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2006, 10:41:AM »

To be honest, I despise the idea of college altogether because today it represents more of a cesspool of sin and liberal indoctrination, and a mere stepping stone to employment, rather than a true institution of learning. However, assuming that the university was restored to its original form (a Catholic institution of learning, and not just a rung on the employment ladder), then I don't see why women shouldn't be allowed to attend. If I were wealthy, I'd consider attending a good university simply for the sake of learning.

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CatholicLady
Member

Posts: 847


« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2006, 11:54:AM »

Well!!!  I have to admit that I couldn't read every word of this article, because it was raising my blood pressure!  To even hint that women are in anyway intellectually inferior, and should not be educated is so outrageous I saw red!

I am a college educated woman....I do,  in face, have a Masters of Arts in Religoin....My intellect is just fine, thank you very much, and I in no way want to become a man.....

Education is a wonderful thing...I beieve in it for everone....male and female.  Education is never a waste.....Knowledge is always useful...and something to be cherished. 

I loved my four years at a small Methodist college, and the six years I spent in a Catholic institution  working on my MAR.  I met many different people.....Some with whom I agreed on many issues, and some I did not agree with.....I read, studied, discussed.....and grew both intellectually and spiritually.  Even though I am not at present using my knowledge to make money.....What I have in my heart and in my head will always be with me.  I use what I have been given for the furthering of God's Kingdom....I work with my praish's RCIA, teach baptisim prep. classes, work withe the Bereavement Ministry, and sing.  I am also trying to establish a Project Rachael ministry in our parish.  The edcation I worked so hard to obtain is standing me in good stead. 

I do not want to offend anyone...But....To me, the idea of suggesting that only men should recieve a first class college education is rediculous.  Everyone benefits from an educated society.....What about the woman who is able to do research and help find a cure for disease?  Or the woman who becomes a fine teacher and influences many young lives, or the woman whose passon for music touches the lives of many?  A woman of intellect who hides her "smarts" in order to make a man look good, or to make herself  appear to be submissive  (I've seen this) is not doing herself or God any favors.  She is wasting her God given gift....Her brain.

I onece knew a woman....a music teacher...who routinely pretneded to be intellectually inferior to her husband....Just to make him feel good.....The man was smart in his own right....though not well educated....and had every reason to feel good about his life choices......But she thought he needed for her to appear to be not so smart.  That's deception, and surely God would not approve.......

Good Grief......

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Quo_Vadis_Petre
Red Comet

Member

Posts: 3,691



« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 12:02:PM »

Bishop Williamson may have overreacted and overreached himself in certain places in his sermon, but many of his points are valid.
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"In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics."   -St. Pius X

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Sophia
Guest
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2006, 12:14:PM »

We are talking two sides of this issue, so it is necessary to make a distinction. 

 

There are two purposes for education, therefore two reasons why someone would pursue it.

 

One reason is to learn a trade, and the other is for the education itself.  It seems that Bishop Williamson thinks that neither is suitable for a woman.

 

Ideally, a woman would not have to work outside of her home, nor should she be pursuing high-powered positions in finance, business, or the like- that's my opinion. There are many trades that women are quite suited for, however, like medicine, and the single woman who does not have a vocation to marriage should be allowed to pursue such a thing.  If the fact that she is single makes some people uncomfortable, then perhaps it is time to invent some new orders of nuns.

 

Then there is the other aspect of education, which fills part of our duty in this life- to know God.  This would be found in a classical, or liberal arts education; the trivium and quadrivium which are prerequisite to studying philosophy and theology.  We are rational animals, and our highest activity is the contemplation of God.  Both men and women are given the ability for this- we all are men, afterall.  To say that "ideas are not for true girls" or that a girl can make a good "imitation" of a student strikes anyone as against common knowledge and sense.  A woman would have a need for this kind of knowledge just as much as a man.

 

Also, a married woman especially needs a good education to be a good helpmate for her husband.   Traditionally, the wife was always involved in her husband's work.  From the Queen all the way down to the baker's wife, she serves as administrator, governor, and adviser.  This was a reality in medieval society- there are paintings of women performing duties that today would be considered "work outside of the home."  It is also a reality in the Bible; read the last chapter of Proverbs.  

 

(edited to add: The work that the woman would be involved in in helping her husband is not only his trade, but also the education of their children, since their generation and education cannot be separated.  For this she also needs an education beyond simply knowing how to cook and clean, just as a man needs an education beyond working on the cars and mowing the lawn.)

 

 For those who bring up that part of the Summa where St. Thomas says that a woman is not made to be a helper in man's work (because he is helped better by other men) but in the work of generation, I believe that this is misread.  True, a woman, as wombed-man is firstly a helper in procreation, but to stop there is to ignore the fact that she is still a man and as such, suited to help her husband in his other work as well.  What we must conclude from this is that God could have made other males to help men if there was no need for procreation, but he instead made a wombed-man who could specialize, as it were, in generating and caring for children.  No where is this sense more obviously seen in the farmer's wife, who labors next to her husband in the fields and in the care of the animals, etc.  Now, it is true that females have a different set of strengths than males, the most obvious of these being a difference in physical strengths, bone structure, etc., the less obvious being different intellectual strengths.  Because of these differences, you have a delineation between "women's" work and "men's" work, which are not rules but a matter of culture and custom.  If it were true that women were only made to help men in generation, however, then it would be a gross disregard for God if women were to reject motherhood in favor of the celibate life. 

 

I don't know very much about the history of the university, but I do know that the university looked very different after the Enlightenment got a hold on it.  The university was not, however, the only place for someone to get an education.  Convents and monasteries were the original sources of education, (and St. Theresa of Avila also learned from her father) and it was at the same time that the universities became secularized and Protestantism began to infect everything, that women were pushed away from the freedoms they had gained in the medieval times.  The feminists did not reject a Catholic view of women- they rejected the Protestantised view of women.  Of course feminists also rejected what Catholic remnants there were left in the culture in regard to women as well, but it is left to us to distinguish between what things those were.  Education is one of those things that women had in the high point of Christendom.  Of course not all women had it- as all men did not.  The vast majority of men and women were not privileged with a sophisticated education.

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2006, 12:15:PM »

Yeah ... take the Bishop's words with several doses of salt.

 

One of my friends was a seminarian and studied under Williamson, and related to me that the Bishop actually said in one of his lectures that women are inferior to men.

 

Pass the salt ...

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mortaliumanimos
Guest
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2006, 12:35:PM »

Another pointless thread.  Everyone for sure is going to disagree with the Bishop on this issue so why bring it up again? I wonder have any of the women actually written to His Excellency expressing their disagreements concerning this issue? I am simply curious.  
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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2006, 01:18:PM »

Bishop Williamson is from England, right? Or no? Could it be that he came from a sort of Victorian lifestyle?

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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2006, 01:36:PM »

Sorry, everyone, I was not trying to cause a big controversy, but I wanted to see where Bishop Williamson was making mistakes in his speech. You all have given very good input. Thank you. Smile

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LEX SUPREMA SALUS ANIMARUM EST.

REQUIESCANT IN PACE ANIMAE IUSTORUM.
Sophia
Guest
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 01:39:PM »

Quote from: mortaliumanimos
Another pointless thread.  Everyone for sure is going to disagree with the Bishop on this issue so why bring it up again?

 

Well, I don't believe it is pointless, as there are a few who agree with this article, and it is just one of those things that doesn't go away.  This argument has done more to turn people away from traditional Catholicism, and therefore needs to be dealt with. 

 

Quote
 I wonder have any of the women actually written to His Excellency expressing their disagreements concerning this issue? I am simply curious. 

 

No, this has never occurred to me, and maybe it would be a good idea.  I'd be surprised, however, if no man or woman has never attempted to discuss this with him.   

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