Sede-plenists and the 3rd part of the Fatima Secret

[gladius_veritatis]

From what the (somewhat friendly and reliable) Vatican sources say, the 3rd part of the secret of Fatima says that "the great apostasy (which is a rather heavy-duty word and reality) will start at the top".  Beyond this, we know little.  However, it seems fair to ask, even if just for the sake of argument:

 

Has it not (46 years after it ought to have been revealed) even started yet, according to sede-plenists?   If it has, and it starts at the top, how do you interpret the word "top"?  

 

If the top, or any other portion has apostatized, it is no longer a part of the Church. 

 

The great apostasy has been raging for over 40 years, and yet we are to believe that it has not even reached the top yet, even though it was supposed to start there (at least 46 years ago), as revealed to us for our own good?

 

For my money, the fact that the secret involves, as far as we can tell at this point, the beginning of a great apostasy - at the top, no less - points more toward sede-vacantism than any other position [if it can even be said to 'point' to any such thing, although I am not now making my argument about the current reality in Holy Church based upon prophecies]. 

 

What else does the evidence, subsequent to 1960, even possibly suggest?  Or are we going to say it has been a merely "material" apostasy, remaining in communion with the greatest devastators the Church has ever seen (by far)?

 

[Paul_VI]

I am sure the information on sedevacantists applies here as well, as each has a dark character and leads to schism.

 

This is from www.sspx.ca, the December 2004 link.

 

 

 

Spiritual illness of Sedevacantism:

Intellectual desolation:

How could we understand the state of a Sedevacantist mind? I think it is characterized by a fixed idea, which is almost an obsession. Their mind seems to freeze on the problem of the pope, which appears to them as being very serious and urgent. This is a typical case of Intellectual Desolation, by which their soul is being disturbed as long as a 'clear answer' has not been found for such a serious problem. Sedevacantists claim that it is urgently needed to make a judgment on the Vatican II popes. For them, it appears to be THE fundamental problem all Traditional Catholics should focus on. For example, let me quote Bishop Pivarunas: "As unpleasant as this subject may be, traditional Catholics are confronted by the terrible and burning questions: Is the Conciliar Church the Catholic Church? Is John-Paul II, as the head of the Conciliar Church, a true pope?…Suffice it to say, the issue of the pope is a difficult one, and unpleasant one, and a frightful one; yet it is a necessary and important issue which cannot be avoided." Let me summarize how Sedevacantists approach the question of the pope: #1 it is a question they have at heart; #2 they want to get a final answer with absolute certainty; #3 such problem is so urgent that it becomes the focus of their attention, up to the point that they cannot see anything else. Thus, they direct their arguments not much against the Modern Church, for which they care less, but against those fellow Traditional Catholics who do not share their conclusions. St. Francis de Sales suffered similar Intellectual Desolation. It was on the matter of predestination. His intellect froze on that question, and his heart was filled with the anguish that he may be damned no matter what. The more he was studying, the more he was finding serious objections against predestination.  This was driving him nuts.  How did St. Francis manage to free himself from that intellectual prison? One day, he fell on his knees before a statue of Our Lady and said: "O Holy Virgin, I think that I am going to be damned.  If I have to curse God for all eternity, let me at least offer you this day in honor of God." When St. Francis de Sales got up, he was healed, being able to relocate his 'problem' at the second place, which is after the humble fulfillment of his daily duty. Let me apply that example to the sedevacantist bug: "Who knows if John-Paul II is pope? Who knows if the Society of St. Pius X is schismatic, as they recognize the pope, and don't obey to him?" In a Sedevacantist mind, such questions are producing deep emotional reactions, which lead to anger and panic: the Sedevacantist is looking for a final answer right now. This kind of Intellectual Desolation is very dangerous. It is threatening pious souls, who are being convinced that they would betray their consciences if they were to ignore these fundamental issues. Such problem affects persons tempted to intellectual pride, and having a tendency to look for the most extreme and desperate solutions, like Brother Michael Diamond, from Most Holy Family Monastery.

Remedy:

In the book of the Spiritual Exercises, St. Ignatius of Loyola gives some rules for Discerning the Spirits. Here are the ones that should be used to deal with the Intellectual Desolation of Sedevacantists: do not make any change to your previous resolutions (5^th rule); counter attack the temptation, by prayer and penance (6^th rule); make an act of will by which you will refuse to be locked in a controversy that you are not qualified to settle (12^th rule). You need to practice intellectual self-discipline and mortification of the will, in other words humility. In our daily life, there are many problems which we are unable to settle, because we do not have the tools. Let us humbly recognize it. Moreover, I think it is important to de-passionate and de-dramatize the problem of the pope: when you will appear before him, do you think that St. Peter will ask you for your opinion on one of his successors? Let me be clear: I do not want to evacuate the real problem of the Church since Vatican II, but to give some simple rules of intellectual self-discipline in order to de-dramatize the Sedevacantist issue, which appears very clearly to be a case of Intellectual Desolation. Always remember that the devil is a liar. He is using the Sedevacantist bug to draw some pious souls away from the means of sanctification, the Mass and the Sacraments. Beware!

[gladius_veritatis]

And this pertains (even remotely) to the 3rd part of the secret...how?

 

We thank you for the profound psycho-analysis, Paulus Sextus, but an actual answer to the matter at hand will suffice (even if you could kindly approach the ball park, it would be much appreciated). 

 

What - if it is truly part of the message (which there is no reason to doubt) - are we to understand by the words/idea:

 

"the great apostasy will start at the top"?

 

Cardinal Ciappi In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.

 

Father Malachi Martin (Summer 1998) He stated that the central element of the Secret is awful, and that it concerns apostasy.

[BibleCatholicJMJ]

Start at the top... as opposed to work it's way up from the faithful to the priests to... you get the point... Very interesting.

[gladius_veritatis]

I am sure the information on sedevacantists applies here as well, as each has a dark character and leads to schism.

Did you mistakenly think you were starting a new thread, and post this utterly irrelevant statement here accidentally?   Or is there some other explanation? 

 

Even when I argue rather vigorously against the objectively erroneous elements of the SSPX position, I do not pretend that the errors of the objective order are attributable in the subjective order in each case. 

 

It is funny that you can see and judge the souls of each sede-vacantist, almost all of whom you do not even know and have not ever seen in your life, yet you get all out of sorts if someone says that it is possible for us to know that the V2 and post-V2 'popes' are public heretics (apostates, really) based on very public words and actions we all know.

 

How could we understand the state of a Sedevacantist mind?  

 

Try just answering their question, or even just pretending for a moment (for the sake of courtesy), that you even intend to comment on the matter which is actually the topic of the thread.

 

I find it a wee bit ironic that you can mention the Fatima message (your own practically quotation-less interpretation of it, really) and how it "proves" the legitimacy of all kinds of people not specifically mentioned therein (even up to 89 years later), and if I simply say (in a manner that says explicitly that I am not pretending to make a substantial argument about anything) you pretend I exhibit "fixation" or whatever else will serve sufficiently as mud.

 

Sedevacantists claim that it is urgently needed to make a judgment on the Vatican II popes.

 

Which sede-vacantists would those be?  The V2 and post-V2 'popes'  have already judged themselves, and I patiently await God and His Holy Church to ratify as true de jure that which is, at present, only true de facto.  As we deserve to be treated more severely than we have been, I expect the crisis we see may last a little longer - and for this I thank God, adoring His holy will in all things.