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Author Topic: The Queen's Birthday II  (Read 4596 times)
VoxClamantis
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2006, 09:46:AM »

Quote from: Mernoc

Last time I checked this was a Catholic Forum not a Forum about Monarchy also from the first post I gather that this is more about the freemason's celebration than the topic of the rights and wrongs of monarchy but once again another thread has been derailed to allow the monarchists to shout down all those who oppose their opinion.

 

The thread seemed to be about the celebration of Queen Victoria's birthday. MaryBonita thought it a bad idea; RoyalCello and RoyalRebel think it's a good idea. The thread was derailed because monarchists got attacked.

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"LET NO ONE QUESTION A MONARCH, ANYONE ELSE BUT NOT A MONARCH WHO IS ABOVE ALL CRITICISM". Can you not see the hypocrisy in this position.

 

I see the hypocrisy in that position, but don't see anyone in this forum holding to it.

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Mernoc
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2006, 09:59:AM »

hmm where was the attack on monarchist's in this post?

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Today, in Canada, is a secular holiday promoted by the freemasonic lodges honoring the birthday of Queen Victoria. We have had this for as long as I can remember. During this period many interesting events take place.

For the York and Scottish Rite lodges there is much activity. Large limousines are spotted cruising around our small city. Some display prominent masonic insignia. It's time for the yearly inspection by the Grand-Grand Masters to make sure the lodges are up to snuff.

The rest of the population - labelled "strangers" by the lodge brotherhood - open the summer cottage and head out "4-wheeling". The barbeques are fired up and the drinks are poured.

The master class and the useful idiots are clearly visible on this long weekend.

Of course May is the month dedicated to the Ever-Virgin Mary. It's crowded with Mother's Day and Queen Victoria Day. And Thursday is the Feast of the Ascension - hardly noted by even the Catholics in this once-Catholic area.

Whatever did our Catholic ancestors suffer and die to preserve if this has now happened?

We continue to pray and thank God that our own eyes have been opened.

Keeping a normal workday amid the celebrations...


That certain monarchists are over sensitive to any criticism what so ever is clearly shown by how this innocent post provoked such an over the top reaction.

What is wrong with a post which tells us that the freemasons celebrate the birhtday of the queen and that as Catholic's we should be ashamed that the we do not treat the Queen of Heaven with as much dignity as the Mason's celebrate this event.

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VoxClamantis
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2006, 10:04:AM »

Quote from: Mernoc
hmm where was the attack on monarchist's in this post? (snip MaryBonita's post)

 

There wasn't an attack on monarchists in MaryBonita's post, and I didn't say there was. The attacks came later in the thread.
 

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That certain monarchists are over sensitive to any criticism what so ever is clearly shown by how this innocent post provoked such an over the top reaction.

 

Go back over the thread...

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What is wrong with a post which tells us that the freemasons celebrate the birhtday of the queen and that as Catholic's we should be ashamed that the we do not treat the Queen of Heaven with as much dignity as the Mason's celebrate this event.

 

Nothing is wrong with a post that tells us that the freemasons celebrate the birthday of the queen. But it is a leap in logic to go from that fact to the idea that monarchy is masonic or something. I mean, I'd guess that most American freemasons celebrate Christmas and the 4th of July, too.

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Mernoc
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2006, 10:15:AM »

I had read the whole thread before I posted and having re-read the thread at your request have not changed my opinion, an opinion which is not just based on this thread but on nearly all threads relating to monarchy on this forum.  It is no coincidence that more than one person have brought up the same complaints over and over again about certain monarchists on this site.  The attitude that "an attack on monarchy is a personal attack on me" is rather unwholesome in my opinion.

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But it is a leap in logic to go from that fact to the idea that monarchy is masonic or something.

No one sugested this, now I ask you to re-read the thread, what has been said is that our current monarch's are either freemason's themselves or controlled by Mason's this in no way states that the whole idea of monarchy is masonic.
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VoxClamantis
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2006, 11:32:AM »

Quote from: Mernoc
I had read the whole thread before I posted and having re-read the thread at your request have not changed my opinion, an opinion which is not just based on this thread but on nearly all threads relating to monarchy on this forum. It is no coincidence that more than one person have brought up the same complaints over and over again about certain monarchists on this site. The attitude that "an attack on monarchy is a personal attack on me" is rather unwholesome in my opinion.

Unless you are referring to the line "Are you trying to provoke me?" in RoyalCello's first post -- a line I understood to be a joke -- then I don't know what you are talking about here. Here is how things actually went:

 

First there was a post accusing monarchists of saying that "real Catholics" are necessarily and always monarchist. It went from there to personal slurs ("Cello, you Catholic yet?/ Just playing the part??"). Then it went to more slurs, this one against me with its calling RoyalCello  "a most protected non-Catholic ever." Then it went to strawmen attacks ("From the comments on this site, we need to have a static monarchy and bow to that monarch's ever whim and desire."). Then more slurs, indirectly against me ("Just remember- Royal Cello walks on water here-no calls for HIM to become Catholic, nor cease to attack those who are"). Then there was more of the same with the talk about "red carpet treatment," all followed up by the slam that monarchists are "dreamers...that bemoan but do little" -- even though, for ex., I am a monarchist and I vote like everyone else and used to do a lot in libertarian circles. Then it moved on to the sort of evangelizing St. Francis would be very proud of ("Cello, convert or be damned--sorry---but I know no one else here has said it to you, as you are a darling here"). Then there was a slur against RoyalCello and all professional musicians, one of whom is my "son-in-law" ("IF I wanted to sit around most of the time, play with instruments and work little, well, I would have taken up music like you"). Then there was "You sir are a non-Catholic from alst I could see, you are but a speck on my shoe."

 

And that's just the first page.

 


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But it is a leap in logic to go from that fact to the idea that monarchy is masonic or something.


No one sugested this, now I ask you to re-read the thread, what has been said is that our current monarch's are either freemason's themselves or controlled by Mason's this in no way states that the whole idea of monarchy is masonic.

 

The question at hand was the celebration of Queen Victoria's birthday, a discussion raised by the first post in the thread  -- a thread that called the remembrance of Queen Victoria's birthday "secular holiday promoted by the freemasonic lodges," which may well be true but which leads to what else I wrote, which was: "I mean, I'd guess that most American freemasons celebrate Christmas and the 4th of July, too," the point being that just because a Mason celebrates a holiday doesn't mean the holiday itself is bad. And the fact is that English Missals always included prayers for their monarchs -- even after Henry VIII and the split from Rome. Therefore, it is not "unCatholic" to pray for and respect non-Catholic Queens and Kings.

 

As to the present monarchs, I can't say I know much about them (and don't care too much to learn; I am more into theory and History myself). They could be Masons, Reptilians, Raelians, Branch Davidians, or the best thing since mac and cheese. But it still remains true, in any case, that monarchy is a superior form of government, and promotion of this fact doesn't need to be met with such animus -- esp. as manifest in accusations that if one is a monarchist, then one necessarily doesn't believe in working for the common Good within the present system until the ideal can be achieved. And one would hope that the strawman stuff would die off if people would stop responding to what they think monarchists are saying (e.g., "we need to have a static monarchy and bow to that monarch's ever whim and desire"), and instead, respond to what they are actually saying.

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MikeSearson
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2006, 11:45:AM »

When I was brand new to this Forum, I got into it with the poster in question and some of his minions about this very point.

After several of my posts were deleted by a mod or an admin, I got the message and sent him an apology in PM which just caused him to lecture me on how to be a good Traditional Catholic. Blah Blah Blah Blah.

If only this Forum had an ignore feature.
Smile

Seriously, though, this is a Private Forum and I see it as Vox's house.  Therefore, she makes the rules/sets the tone, etc. 

If I don't like it...I'll find somewhere else to go or start my own Forum.  That's not likely as I only take offense to the minority of posts on here with issues near and dear to me.  None of which have anything whatsoever to do with Catholicism and none of which would ever be said to my face or in my presence.

So I took the advice of a sagacious fellow fisheater forumite and "I just offer it up" and try to stay out of the threads that get me riled up.  If I were to post my real thoughts on these matters I would get banned so I keep my big trap shut and play nice.

I'm not going to be driven from a Forum with so much great content and such great people by a pompous ass who gets puritanical about my salty language or some sick little gerbil who traded in their tinfoil hat for a dedicated aluminium collander to fit their pointy head many years ago.

There are greater tragedies in life.

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DominusTecum
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2006, 12:57:PM »

Look, all. Monarchy is most assuredly not "idolized" by monarchists, and monarchs are not "idolized" by monarchists (at least, not any that I have met, or Catholic ones.) It would be foolish and pure folly to do so. Look how wretched King Henry VIII was, leaving the Holy Catholic Church because the Pope wouldn't accede to the whims of his love life. There are other examples, too.

 

However, monarchy is most assuredly the best form of government, and the one most in line with Catholic principles, which is why Pius VI pronounced it "the best of all governments." When we advocate monarchy, we don't do so out of some foolish thought that we'll be the ones wearing the fine robes, carrying a sword, and being proclaimed "King Eric," or "King RoyalCello" or what have you. We don't do so just because we like pomp and ceremony and think that "Your Majesty" is very poetic (it is, but that's another story.) No, we advocate monarchy because we are looking for an authentic restoration of Catholic Culture.

 

Monarchy is not a "side attraction," a mere curiousity in the minds of a few trads that's developed into an unhealthy fixation. Rather, it is, objectively speaking, the best form of government, and it is that which is most in line with Catholic social principles, which is why we advocate it. The "evil Middle Ages," otherwise known as the "Ages of faith" were the most Catholic of all eras. Virtually everyone in Europe was Catholic. In this environment, the government which naturally developed was the Catholic confessional state, with a Catholic monarch, his power tempered by Catholic nobles on one side, and the Holy Church on the other. This is what we wish to restore, if it is possible, and this is why we advocate monarchy. Monarchy as an institution is very Catholic, and this can be seen amply reflected in the poor, sad shreds of the British Monarchy. While it is only a shadow of its former glory, it is nonetheless a venerable institution, a venerable office, regardless of the actions of some of the officeholders. Just as the typical "Republican" can respect and honor the office of the Presidency and the "White House," while loathing President Clinton with all his heart, he would never dream of saying "let us abolish the presidency." Every bucket has a few bad apples. We are men, not angels, and we have original sin. There have been Catholic monarchs of England, and there have been protestants. However, in the grand scheme of things, the foundation was and is a Catholic one, and the occupation of the office by heretics is merely a "modern abberation," if you will, a little deviation from the long-term Catholic character of the establishment.

 

As with everything, and certainly, we trads should understand this, in light of the modernism in the Catholic hierarchy today, "True obedience" is the rule. If the King taxes you, you pay him. If he orders your sons to fight in a just war, they fight in a just war. If he says "Do this" and it is reasonable, you do it. If he says "Abjure your faith and become a protestant heretic like myself" you disobey, and if circumstances permit it, tell him to stuff it. If he would then martyr you for this, you go joyfully to your execution, saying, with St. Thomas More and the holy martyrs of the English "reformation," "I die the King's most loyal servant, but God's first."

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RoyalRebel
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2006, 02:02:PM »

To Dominus Tecum, RoyalCello and especially Vox Clamantis: Bless you all for your eloquence! Anything further from me would be superfluous. We are of one mind—a Catholic mind—and I have enjoyed this immensely and with great relish. I shall pray a rosary for your intentions.
“Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulierbus, et benedictus Fructus ventri tui Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.”
“G’bye now, and God love you!”:hello!:Tip o' the hatSalute
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Spooky7272
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2006, 04:34:PM »

Quote from: Vox
First there was a post accusing monarchists of saying that "real Catholics" are necessarily and always monarchist.

 

That was me. I was responding to this from royalcello:

Quote from: royalcello
Beware, my Anglophilic friend RoyalRebel, a bona fide traditional Catholic who unapologetically flies the Union Jack and keeps a portrait of the Queen in his house, is even "worse" than I am!

 

I took offense (and still do) that Mr. Rebel is a "bona fide" trad Catholic because he's a monarchist, especially from a non-Catholic I don't care how freaking smart he is. Monarchy is not a dogma of the Catholic faith, regardless how many Popes have praised it or condemned democracy.

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royalcello
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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2006, 04:37:PM »

Quote from: Spooky7272
Quote from: royalcello
Beware, my Anglophilic friend RoyalRebel, a bona fide traditional Catholic who unapologetically flies the Union Jack and keeps a portrait of the Queen in his house, is even "worse" than I am!

 

I took offense (and still do) that Mr. Rebel is a "bona fide" trad Catholic because he's a monarchist



Then you missed my point, which was simply that "RoyalRebel," unlike me, is a baptized and confirmed traditional Catholic, not "because he's a monarchist," but because he converted to Catholicism via the SSPX a few years ago.  That's all I meant by referring to him as "bona fide."  I was contrasting him with myself, not with you or anyone else in this case.  Understand now?   No offense intended.
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