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Vincentius
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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2006, 05:00:PM » |
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What hogwash! So now NFP is somehow an abortifacient? well, if you use it to avoid to avoid a pregnancy, (without the appropriate reasons...we all know what they are blah blah blah) I can see why you come up with this notion. As to your mates who could dispel this argument, that is good, every argument needs 2 sides. My argument was about NFP being an abortifacient, not about its merits, demerits, morality or immorality. That is something else. In the several NFP previous discussions I disagreed on the use of NFP as a "natural" method of preventing conception. The argument hovers over how the term "abuse" is defined. |
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DominusTecum
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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2006, 08:11:PM » |
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Pius XI said it was OK in certain limited circumstances. The Holy office clarified this with several decrees which made it clear that it better be life-or-death or darned close, must be approved by one's confessor, the confessor would sin if he gave a dispensation to use it without sufficiently grave reason, etc. The problem is not with its use in the right circumstances, but that it's used very inappropriately today, and the modern contraceptive mentality gets involved, so you are using it because "you just need a little more space between the kids" or "Things aren't going so well right now" or somesuch. As Monique so eloquently put, we must trust in God's providence, no matter how hard that may seem at the time. We're not put on this earth to have a ball, we're put on it to walk through a valley of tears, and to do Our Lord's will. Most couples should probably never have to use NFP, or sincerely desire to do so. As it is now, it's just "Catholic contraception," which is certainly NOT what it is. As I understand it, it is for those rare occasions when for whatever reason complete abstinence is impossible, but yet it's a very very grave situation. It is very much a concession, and is not the "ideal" in any sense. |
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spasiisochrani
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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2006, 08:38:PM » |
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I know of an acquaintance who is not catholic but uses NFP and engages in sodomy with her husband during fertile times. And she took classes through the Catholic church!
Its not surprising that she practices sodomy and was instructed through the Church, Christopher West (of TOB fame) wrote a book about sex or whatever and in it it states that Sodomy between a couple during the 'Natural' act is fine.... I am not a fan of Christopher West, but I do not believe that he said this. Can you provide a quote and a citation? |
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orangemetal
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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2006, 08:42:PM » |
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NFP makes the secondary ends primary which is why it is wrong. If the couple where unaware that it was a infertile period then this would be ok but the fact is that by using NFP they are making a conscious decision to participate in the conjugal act for secondary causes not the primary cause which is the begetting of children.
I do not see how you can say that the primary purpose of the conjugal act is for the begetting of children but then at the same time condone couples deliberately trying to avoid this while still enjoying all the secondary benefits. The result of this attitude psychologically leads to the secondary ends been given more importance, in effect the secondary ends become the primary end and the primary end is treat as something undesirable and to be avoided. By the way, this is exactly what Vatican II did; it put the mutual love and relationship of the husband and wife as the primary ends of holy Matrimony and the begetting of children secondary. Maybe not explicitly but that is the order which they wrote it. Modern NFP or any "family planning" in that sense is obviously a symptom of the heresy of Modernism and of Vatican II. Kyrie eleison Jonathan |
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O My God, I believe in Thee, I love Thee, I hope in Thee and I adore Thee and i beg pardon for all those who do not believe in Thee, do not love Thee, do not hope in Thee and do not adore Thee.
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Marty
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2006, 09:21:PM » |
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I know of an acquaintance who is not catholic but uses NFP and engages in sodomy with her husband during fertile times. And she took classes through the Catholic church!
Its not surprising that she practices sodomy and was instructed through the Church, Christopher West (of TOB fame) wrote a book about sex or whatever and in it it states that Sodomy between a couple during the 'Natural' act is fine.... I am not a fan of Christopher West, but I do not believe that he said this. Can you provide a quote and a citation? It was in a book that I looked at not long ago but the title has escaped me at the minute, will get back to you on that. |
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Mernoc
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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2006, 06:22:AM » |
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I know Orange that is one of the reason's I reject Vatican II in it's entirety.
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Marylou
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2006, 11:29:AM » |
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Mernoc - I totally agree with your understanding of NFP in the modern church today - NFP is Catholic Contraception driven by a contraception mentality. Take a pill or read a chart, chose what ever means you seem fit but in my understanding you are enjoying God's gift of sex but rejecting the bringing forth of new life.
NFP may or may not kill embryo's but how many millions of children desired by God have been killed in the hearts of Catholic's with a contraceptive mentality?
A mother of many children, who was about to be a mother once more came to
Ars to seek courage at the feet of St. John Vianney. She said to him: "Oh, I
am so advanced in years, Father!" St. John Vianney responded: "Be comforted
my child, if you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did
not bring into the world they children they should have given it!"
Trust in God
Marty - I think the book to which you refer is called 'Good News About Sex and Marriage' by Christopher West. I removed it from our home believing it to be pornographic and certainly not wanting my youngsters to find it. In it West refers to sodomy in marriage being ok if used as a form of 'foreplay' (good grief) but not a good idea for reasons I will not go into here. I was of the understanding that sodomy was one of those sins 'Crying out to Heaven for Vengeance"! Doesn't sound too Catholic to me.
Ahhh! the good old sixth commandment. Satan's having a field day with it !!
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spasiisochrani
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2006, 07:54:PM » |
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Marty - I think the book to which you refer is called 'Good News About Sex and Marriage' by Christopher West. I removed it from our home believing it to be pornographic and certainly not wanting my youngsters to find it. In it West refers to sodomy in marriage being ok if used as a form of 'foreplay' (good grief) but not a good idea for reasons I will not go into here.
Is it possible, within the bounds of decency, to tell me what, exactly, Christopher West approves that you believe to be a sin? It's OK if you can't. |
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Marty
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« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2006, 04:28:AM » |
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Thank you Mum (MaryLou), that was the book and the part I was refering to. |
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Marylou
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2006, 11:41:AM » |
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Marty - I think the book to which you refer is called 'Good News About Sex and Marriage' by Christopher West. I removed it from our home believing it to be pornographic and certainly not wanting my youngsters to find it. In it West refers to sodomy in marriage being ok if used as a form of 'foreplay' (good grief) but not a good idea for reasons I will not go into here.
Is it possible, within the bounds of decency, to tell me what, exactly, Christopher West approves that you believe to be a sin? It's OK if you can't. No. Sodomy is one of the sins Crying to Heaven for Vengenance |
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