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Author Topic: about homosexualty  (Read 10045 times)
DominusTecum
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 01:46:PM »

The act of sodomy is a sin. We do not know what causes it. It is very unlikely that it is a "genetic predisposition," but it could very well be (and IMO probably is) a psychological thing. Many people have "mental issues" of some sort, and of course they do not know that they have it, and do not think along the lines of: "I have and can feel that I have x mental issue, I'll just tell myself that it's bad to have it and that I don't want it anymore and presto! I will no longer have the mental issue." It doesn't work like that. Consequently, such a condition will probably feel "completely natural" and "ingrained" and "uncurable by known means." The temptation by to sodomy could also be attributed to the demonic, or to cultural upbringing, or what have you.

 

Regardless, it is a sin. Just as I am tempted (and it would be a grave sin to ever give in) to look at women in a lustful manner, so these poor people are tempted, with mortal sin should they give in, to gaze at persons of the same sex with lustful thoughts. That is the end of the matter. Hate the sin, love the sinner holds here as always. We cannot tolerate or accept the sin in any way, shape, or form, but the sinner is a sinful man, just like you or I. The problem is not with "those with homosexual temptations," it is with those who seek to incorporate these homosexual temptations into who they are, as if it were simply part of them, when it is objectively disordered to do so.

 

 

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kjvail
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 03:02:PM »

I just recently had a client that was openly queer. Now it's not my  mandate here to treat same sex attraction(it is treatable), but rather  substance abuse.
  In any case, what he disclosed is he struggled with his same sex  attraction for years, but then stopped struggling because he became  convinced it was OK, he was "born" that way, there is nothing wrong  with it etc. After that he became openly queer, engaging random sexual  encounters, as is the lifestyle, etc.
  The conscience knows the natural law, his struggle only ceased when he gave into it.
 
 
 
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Pax Tecum,
Kevin V.

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"In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing,
LatinPassion
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 05:06:PM »

Originally Posted by LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through. Its easy for people to say its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry.  



First, I reread Missfluffy's post, and nowhere did she state none of us could ever understand what a homosexual goes through.  Second, since it is your assertion that none of us could ever understand what a homosexual goes through, I'll address you directly.  Since when do homosexuals have the corner market on sexual depravity/sin?  Most of us have struggled with some form of sexual desire and living out that desire, it makes no difference if it's of the homosexual nature or heterosexual nature.

To respond to your query, Miss Fluffy stated:" There are a few things about gays that I can state with some authority (at least in my city)." She goes on to state one theory of the tormented state that homosexuals as a whole are in: "There are a few rare exceptions out there where you think... this person is like a woman trapped in a man's body, or vice versa." I never stated that they had a corner market on sexual immorality. Prove to me in my post where I explicitly stated that. If you are going to use the assertion I made of no one being able to understand their tormented state, fine I'll give you that, but then isn't it also true that I will never know what its like to be you and vice versa. That same logic is the one I am referring to in this case. As to comparing heterosexual sexual tendencies to homosexual sexual tendencies, thats like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they're both fruits but each fruit is different. Heterosexual sexual promiscuity is a problem, and no where did I mention that it wasn't. The subject of the post was of homosexuality so I directed my statements at homosexuality, not homosexual immoral tendencies vs. heterosexual immoral tendencies.

Quote:
I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male. I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I would wish on no one. As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what is needed.



I'm glad you have empathy, but you are assuming no one else has empathy, based on what I do not know.  I have not witnessed anyone in this thread flame homosexuals.

Really you haven't witnessed anyone bash homosexual with such words as faggots (excuse my language) etc. It may be true that you haven't witnessed such things, but the point is it does at times happen. As I mentioned later on in my post I ask pardon of those on the forum who do not partake in such vile language towards some one whose plight they do not understand. When I said I am blessed with EMPATHY, I was speaking of myself in reference to the whole homosexual subject. I am not referring to the Homosexual Movement where everyone is gay and proud, but to factions of homosexuals ie, those who aren't proud of their orientation.

Quote:
To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do is continually do is throw stones.



Again, who is throwing stones.  The only one I've witnessed throwing stones in this thread is  you.  As to the content of the above portion, the same can be said for just about any sinner.  The alcoholic drinks to fill a void, the permiscuous teenage girl may have sex with many partners seeking love she never got from her father, the sex addict continues to fill a void through sexual gratification, etc. 

Did I not state another instance in which that same gratification is sought in the above verse you quoted me on ? I mentioned prostitutes as falling victim to the same dilemma, but the point is this is not about prostitutes,alcholics ( further in my post I believe you noticed that I mentioned Alcoholics who seek therapy) etc. The topic of the thread is homosexuality. Hence my argument was directed as the homosexual problem of individual factions. In this case I am referring to those who are not about the "I'm gay out, loud and proud" (hopefully that doesn't become their slogan). Again refer to my previous response.

Quote:
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them. Dominus tecum, I noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you, and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not want to be that way, but it happens.



How about we replace the pro-homosexual agenda with  the pedophile agenda gaining more and more attention?  They just want to be accepted and the ability to have sex with their desired object without anyone looking down on them afterall.  Sounds ludicrous does it not?  It's just as ludicrous for the homosexual agenda, I am speaking of the media attention and outright ramming of acceptance of their lifestyle down the typical citizen's throat, to the outright attempts to destroy the God given intent of marriage.  You can sit idly by and let this happen, others choose to speak out about it and stop it.  Just a note, if the post Vatican II Church were any more accepting of homosexuals we would all be wearing rainbow sashes.  Have you read anything at all about the rampant homosexual permiscuous behavior going on in across the nation in the seminaries? 

I am in no way pro the homosexual agenda. My post in no way states that, if you assumed that from reading my reply I suggest you continue reading it, because that is not what I stated. Again I will reiterate the point that I made in my post, I am not condoning the act, but feel that people who do not understand such an attraction should be more charitable towards them. For instance if you're an ethnicist ( I don't believe its a real word, but the fact of the matter is there is no such thing as a race, but the human race. We are merely different ethnicities.), and feel the need to blab how much you despise someone elses ethnicity etc. I would be charitable towards you and take into account why you may hold the said beliefs, but I would also extend my charity and define why yours are in error. Kind of like catholic apologetics. You don't go screaming out "you filfthy heretic" to a protestant you meet, right ? You are charitable and take into consideration his or her background to understand, why they are the way they are and then you extend that same charity and correct their error.

Quote:
To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare. Free therapy usually goes along the lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure.



There are free resources for psychotherapy, but I do not believe mainstream psychology would help anyway.  A resource that has had great success is the one Missfluffy mentioned in a later post. 

Whether psychotherapy be free or not is not the issue. It all begins with the person themself. I or anyone else can tell you something, but change only comes when you apply it to yourself. An uptight therapist can sit in his or her chair and lecture anyone with any problem. Though each therapist works through a different school of thought, whether it be Freudian,Pavlovian (classical conditioning),Skinner(operant conditioning),Rogerian etc. Whether it be a therapist or ones peer the change can only come about through the efforts of the person. Again I will restate that I in no way am promoting the homosexual agenda, I just feel it should be dealt with in a more charitable way.

Quote:
Blaming it on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households. Chastity is the best possible option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied. Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality, consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass exorcism, I doubt that'll happen. No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life. There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more instead of treating them like lepers. Come on now they're showing charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds. Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read into it searching for an argument.

Pax Vobiscum



What are you talking about here?  Do you understand the basice concept of hate the sin love the sinner?

I was merely restating my previous point. I mentioned nuclear families, In the case that anyone came with the idea that homosexuals are bred from such households. I believe its understandable as to why I pointed that out, don't you think.Secondly I put other causes such as demonic possesion, hence why I mentioned Asmodeus the one mentioned in the book of Tobit.This is why I mentioned the idea of a mass Exorcism to remedy such a problem. As you can see from the above to examples and not having to go into detail with the rest I merely was giving common arguments that are given about homosexuals. As to the other point of I'm tired of the nonsense people spew out about this just being a board etc. Yes, its a board but regardless of that its a community. Put it a step further its in a sense a society of trad catholics. Not in real time, but online when we all gather here we interact socially/communally, hence we're a society/community. As for the Nazi bit, its true some people do come off as bigots, and not only when it comes to matters of this magnitude, but simpler things. Yes, we must respect one another, but there is also a line that must be drawn as to what is proper and what is not. As they say if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. If you are to discuss a touchy subject such as homosexuality or any other sensitive subject such as divorce etc, please do so with class. For instance we should leave such vile language as faggot,ass,slut (please excuse the language, I am merely trying to make a point.) etc for the streets and not bring them into the forum.

kjvail

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through. Its easy for people to say its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry. I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male.



Don't assume, it make an a** out of you and me

I'm a therapist, I deal with people all day long that may very well go to their graves in denial of their depraaved and immoral behavior. Immoral behavior causes a blindness in the intellect with respect to the object of the moral act, people become more and more unable to even view their behavior accurately.

While you didn't exactly say the word a**, you implied it. I would expect better language coming from a professional. We are all professionals here are we not ?, I would ASSUME so.I believe it's best we use language that is proper for a forum. Yes, the word ass, does make its point there are various synonyms that could be used instead ie, foolish etc. As to your notion that assuming makes me appear to be an a**, are you not working from that same logic ? Are you not ASSuming that I am making us both appear foolish ? It's a human trait, that neither you or myself can get over. Assumption is not always the wisest of routes, but it is the way in which we come to a first hand understanding of the world around us. Epistomological Modesty comes to mind. I was merely assuming, but I never stated that I knew anything for certain.

Quote:

I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I would wish on no one. As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what is needed. To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do is continually do is throw stones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them. Dominus tecum, I noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you, and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not want to be that way, but it happens.



It really irks me when people misuse that passage. Yes, Our Blessed Lord said "let him who is without sin throw the first stone". Then He also said, "Go and sin no more". There is a difference between charity and permissiveness. Where in the world did Christians get the idea that we should tolerate evil? The spiritual works of mercy require we "correct the sinner". Of course this needs to be done in the right way, with love not hatred, but it is not love to ignore the sin... in fact that is one way that we may participate in the sin of another - by silence.

It shouldn't irk you in the mode I used it, because in reading the rest of my post you came to the conclusion that you did above, that it should be done in the proper way.Again never did I mention that we should not speak out against it, but telling someone they are going to hell is not the way to go. In essence you'd be doing exactly what the protestants do screaming out verses and having a person come to submit to GOD's will out of fear. I believe we are all familiar with that brand of fundamentalist that go screaming gay people are going to hell etc. As I mentioned in my previous response you wouldn't go up to a protestant and start calling them a "fifthy heretic" and then shove down their throat catholic doctrine and expect them to convert. But I will not repeat that point, because I believe you get the gist of it.

Quote:

 To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare. Free therapy usually goes along the lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure. Blaming it on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households. Chastity is the best possible option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied. Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality, consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass exorcism, I doubt that'll happen.



You are assuming again and talking about things you obviously don't have a clue about. Therapy is widely available, for free, thru various social organizations (try Catholic Social Services for instance), medicare will pay for it, etc. Therapy may not always be the best choice, for the reasons given but not for the reason that if it's free its no good. I take a bit of offense to that, since I work in the DOC, the therapy I give is free as far as my clients are concerned.

Again I pose to you the same assumption that you are pressing onto my post. You are also assuming that I said that free therapy is worthless. Cite for me where I explicitly mentioned that. I was just mentioning that when therapy is mentioned it is assumed that you have to pay for it. Never did I state that therapy was not available for free. Secondly, you're assuming that everyones plan covers things such as therapy etc. Thirdly, if you were a child with such a problem would you go to your parents and tell them of your homosexual tendencies, and have their plan pay for it. Culture plays a role in this matter, but I will expand on this later. 

Quote:

No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life. There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more instead of treating them like lepers. Come on now they're showing charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds. Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read into it searching for an argument.



I'm curious, since you think the Church is "treating them like lepers" what would you have the Church do? I just appointed you dictator of the Catholic Church.... you can change anything you want. What would your approach be?

First off, your sarcastic wit is one that as I mentioned earlier is one that professionals such as ourselves should not be using with one another to mock one another. But then again to use your logic I might just be "assuming" that you're being sarcastic. As to the idea of the church treating homosexuals like lepers, it indeed is true. Are we not the church, are not other people within the catholic church no matter what congregation they are part of part of the church, whether it be your catholic church or mine. I am not referring to Tradition,Scipture or the Pope's ruling on homosexuality for the church as a whole, but rather on the church made up of us as a people. As I mentioned earlier culture plays a major role as to how this issue is handled. For instance in Latino/Hispanic or African American communities the very idea of homosexuality is taboo. When the church says homosexuality is bad, these very communities take it to the extreme. Not all who are part of them do, but the majority of them do. I am part of these communities, more specifically of the Puerto Rican community which is a sidebar of the Latino/Hispanic community. I can say without assuming how things work in these 2 communities. For instance I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dancehall or Reggae music, seeing that its secular music I am not sure if anyone listens to it. Many people dance to it without knowing what some of the words in English Patua mean. For instance a verse in one song is Chi Chi Man Bang. Chi Chi Man- refers to a homosexual and Bang is describing what should be done to one that is homosexual. Bang basically means to shoot that person. Many of these songs have more explicit lyrics such as these, and people get the impression that its ok. Basically its homophobia.As Camp mentioned its not a gene/disease. Going further with that notion one could say that many cultures are homophobic and manifest themselves through the religion. I as a catholic, not as head of church or anything feel that charity should be offered in the proper way. Culture is one thing that plays a major roll in everything we do, hence we form prejudices and stereotypes about certain groups. These are all based on assumptions, because plainly put that is how we acclimate ourselves to any given environment. Until you can remove culture from the faith, or find a way for both to harmonize you will still have this problem ie American Roman Catholic vs Portuguese Roman Catholic etc. You can't seperate one from the other, but as I mentioned pray that they harmonize with one another as to how the faith and culture are expressed with one another.

 

Pax Vobiscum

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DominusTecum
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 06:22:PM »

The above is all well and good. (I believe that the second post is latinpassion's also, though somehow it's showing as kjvail's, some formatting issue I imagine.) However, why is any of it necessary? None of it changes the simple truth that the homosexual act is a sin, and that we should hate the sin, and love the sinner. Nobody in this thread called them "faggots" or said "faggots all rot in hell." Even if they said the latter, in a sense, it is true, because by definition a "faggot" is a practicing sodomite, and since sodomy is a mortal sin, if it's unconfessed or unless they have true contrition before death, they will. This is not a social club, this is a forum where the truths of the faith are spelled out and clarified for all, to the best of our collective ability.

 

Please, without paragraphs, tell us what your point is, LatinPassion. Is it "Sodomy is a sin but we should treat sodomites with all possible charity since many of them struggle terribly?"

 

 

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kjvail
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 07:26:PM »

Quote
While you didn't exactly say the word a**, you implied it. I  would expect better language coming from a professional. We are all  professionals here are we not ?, I would ASSUME so.I believe it's best  we use language that is proper for a forum. Yes, the word ass, does  make its point there are various synonyms that could be used instead  ie, foolish etc. As to your notion that assuming makes me appear to be  an a**, are you not working from that same logic ? Are you not ASSuming  that I am making us both appear foolish ? It's a human trait, that  neither you or myself can get over. Assumption is not always the wisest  of routes, but it is the way in which we come to a first  hand understanding of the world around us. Epistomological Modesty  comes to mind. I was merely assuming, but I never stated that I knew  anything for certain.
 
 
  Lighten up, its a play on words. I don't know if your a "professional"  or not. Beyond that this point didn't make much sense. Do you know what  the word epistemological means? Because you didn't use it right
 
 
Quote
It shouldn't irk you in the mode I used it, because in reading  the rest of my post you came to the conclusion that you did above, that  it should be done in the proper way.Again never did I mention that we  should not speak out against it, but telling someone they are going to  hell is not the way to go. In essence you'd be doing exactly what the  protestants do screaming out verses and having a person come to submit  to GOD's will out of fear. I believe we are all familiar with that  brand of fundamentalist that go screaming gay people are going to hell  etc. As I mentioned in my previous response you wouldn't go up to a  protestant and start calling them a "fifthy heretic" and then shove  down their throat catholic doctrine and expect them to convert. But I  will not repeat that point, because I believe you get the gist of it.
 
 
  Well I've never called anyone a filthy heretic or told them they were  going to burn in hell, not here or anywhere else. There you go assuming  again.
  You have me pegged as some kind of fundy that goes around screaming at people, which tells me who I'm dealing with is a liberal.
 
 
Quote
You are also assuming that I said that free therapy is worthless.Cite for me where I explicitly mentioned that. I was just  mentioning that when therapy is mentioned it is assumed that you have  to pay for it. Never did I state that therapy was not available for  free. Secondly, you're assuming that everyones plan covers things such  as therapy etc. Thirdly, if you were a child with such a problem would  you go to your parents and tell them of your homosexual tendencies, and  have their plan pay for it.
 
  OK
 

 
Quote from: latinpassion
"To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that  kind of money to spare. Free therapy usually goes along the lines of  everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are  etc., basically its conditioning."
 
 
 
  Perhaps you didn't mean to say that free therapy is worthless but this  is exactly what you said, I'm not sure how else someone would interpret  this sentance. I make no assumptions about any plan, tho most states  have a parity law which requires insurance coverage to offer mental  health benefits, perhaps your state does not. (IN does), medicaid and  medicare do offer mental health coverage.
   As for communication with a child, thats always tough. I would  hope one could build a relationship with their child that would enable  him to come to you with anything, that's what every parent wants. I  know it doesn't always happen, but that doesn't mean he can't get any  help.
  Its a straw man anyways, most therapist don't treat same sex attraction  because as Vox pointed out the queer lobby saw to it that it was  removed from the DSM (big book of mental disorders) in 1973.
 
Quote
 First off, your sarcastic wit is one that as I mentioned  earlier is one that professionals such as ourselves should not be using  with one another to mock one another. But then again to use your logic  I might just be "assuming" that you're being sarcastic. As to the idea  of the church tr...
 
  Before I asked a simple question, now I'm being sarcastic, see the difference?
   You typed a very long paragraph here and neatly avoided answering the question.
  What should "the Church" do differently?
 
  Well this was fun (not)...
 
 
 
 
 
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Pax Tecum,
Kevin V.

"I am a converted pagan living among apostate puritans"
- C.S. Lewis

"In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing,


miss_fluffy
Domina Frivola
Member..

Personality type: Phlegmatic Mastermind
Posts: 5,317



« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 07:48:AM »

It's sad the way this has degenerated.  And it looks like it has happened due to misunderstandings.  I don't think LatinPassion was accusing anyone on the board of uncharitable acts towards homosexuals.  For one thing, he hasn't been on the board very long, so how could he know people here so well?  And for another thing, he put in a disclaimer.  Is it possible that LatinPassion is referring more to someone he knows in real life?  Maybe he knows a Catholic who is very uncharitable towards homosexuals?  Someone who brings it up alot and annoys him with the subject maybe?  I'm just guessing here, but it seems to me that all this passion has come from somewhere.  Then when several people protested LatinPassion's remarks(maybe a little more than was warranted if you ask me), the full fury of the Latin Passion seems to have come out.

 

Are you projecting something onto folks here in the forum LatinPassion?

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Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.– Buddha

Note: According to this precept, I find that Buddhism is NOT true.  I have tested and judged many things, and the only Truth I have found is in God's One True Church: The Catholic Church.

Dear Lord, I know I can live by Your Holy Will every moment of my life, because You have given me faith that Your Grace will enable me to.
kjvail
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Personality type: INTJ / melancholic
Posts: 3,527


WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 09:14:AM »

Quote
Are you projecting something onto folks here in the forum LatinPassion?
 

 


  DING, DING, DING! We have a winner.
 

 


 

 
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Pax Tecum,
Kevin V.

"I am a converted pagan living among apostate puritans"
- C.S. Lewis

"In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing,
Immaculata001
Guest
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 01:46:PM »

Ummm, I think the original question was whether the Church could maintain that homosexuality is morally neutral or somehow predisposed, and yet condemn sexuality.

 

I don't know of Church documents addressing the issue, so I'd answer using a little logic...

 

There seems to be some empirical evidence that homosexuality may be rooted in some biological predisposition, particularly with hormones that circulate within a mother's womb, in utero: one study found that women who have multiple male births were more likely to have a homosexual son, the theory being that testosterone was increased and circulating within the in utero environment. 

 

Also, lesbians have been found to have the eye-hand coordination of heterosexual males, and a similar level of manual dexterity, which is attributed to the certain hormones that affect these, found in both heterosexual males and lesbians (A Natural History of Homosexuality addresses some of these studies). 

 

The problem with these studies, however, is that they are undertaken by sources that could be said to be biased (homosexual lobby, scientists, etc), and they may overlook other factors (the fact that emotional and psychological developments may actually create our bodies' chemistry,  to what extinct these biological predispositions can be influence by behavior and conditioning, etc).

 

The relevance of these studies/empirical proof, IMHO, is that we're forced to ask: should behavior that is considered morally corrupt be accepted because there seems to be a biological predisposition? The Church's answer could legitimately be, "No."

 

There was a pretty recent study of psychopaths that showed that certain parts of their brains functioned abnormally, and even showed malformation; I'm paraphrasing, but I believe the areas affected would predispose them to acts of aggression and pleasure.  An extremely morally nihilistic perspective would seek to absolve the psychopath from guilt, from a prison sentence, because of a supposed "handicap."

 

But if this were done, there'd be an obvious toll for society, for victims, a loss of security, etc, not to mention the fact that it may be possible that not all people with this form of damage act on it, and that individuals may be able to resist the impulse, which would make them more responsible for the acts they commit, which would discredit a strictly biological argument.

 

The same could be said of homosexuality; an individual may have some sort of innate disposition, but this has not been conclusively proven, and there may be some factors of conditioning and volition that would increase individual responsibility.  The Church, from an orthodox moral standpoint, has to have a consistent standpoint, as morals do not change because of scientific suppositions.

 

For instance, what if we found a biological predisposition to pedophilia? Would we then say that it is a handicap, and that pedophiles are not responsible for theire conduct?

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miss_fluffy
Domina Frivola
Member..

Personality type: Phlegmatic Mastermind
Posts: 5,317



« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 02:36:PM »

For me there's a strong biological predisposition to desire sex, even though I'm not married.  I'm sure the scientists would back this up with whatever studies they can do.

 

Strangely enough, I'm able to overcome this desire, and not act on it.  Hmmm....

 

Not trying to argue with anyone.  I know that people take things the wrong way.  Just brainstorming on what Immaculata posted.

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Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.– Buddha

Note: According to this precept, I find that Buddhism is NOT true.  I have tested and judged many things, and the only Truth I have found is in God's One True Church: The Catholic Church.

Dear Lord, I know I can live by Your Holy Will every moment of my life, because You have given me faith that Your Grace will enable me to.
Ceildric
Member

Posts: 166


« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 02:51:PM »

Everyone has different crosses to bear, which God has given us, in His wisdom, along with the support to bear them, if we rest in His strength.  The crosses are our own personal crosses and are ideally suited for facillitating our growth and successful mission on Earth.

Predisposition to certain temptations, whatever they are, at most is just scientific proof of certain forms of crosses or aspects of crosses that persons have to bear.  To suggest that some people are not responsible for bearing their crosses is to strip those persons of their humanity.  If they cease to have free will to choose, and to suffer in His service they cease to have means of freely accepting His offered mercy.  God has provided boundless strength and love for us, that we might bear what is presented to us.  One cannot be excused from turning one's back on that offer.

Forgiven, YES.  Excused, NO.

This is not to say its not understandable why some are deceived, confused, and misguided.  The explanations serve to help us point them back to the true source of love.  However, the only way to turn is to repent, and to say "I HAVE done wrong.  Lord I love you, let me serve you.  Show me the truth that I might."  One must admit mistakes that God might forgive them.  Those that are held back will burn us.

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"et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos"

"And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free" (John 8:32)
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