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Author Topic: Ex-Sedes  (Read 9053 times)
gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2006, 07:00:PM »

Quote from: Paul_VI
I aligned with the sedevacantist theory, at first, but never joined a sede chapel.

There is not an initiation, Paulus.  I have not "joined" a chapel, either.

 

Quote
Hence, we must search for a priest that says a valid Mass and one who recognizes the pope as legitimate head of the Church.

 

I recognize the Pope as the head of the Church.  I just do not recognize BXVI as an actual Pope.

 

Quote
Therefore, I listened to all arguments, and applied Fatima as a litmus test.

 

Which is not the way to go about it.  We have seen the fruits of your "litmus test", the partial refutation of which I posted - and you have yet to respond.

 

Quote
Fatima sought the Pope's consecration of Russia, and this was to be performed by the Pope of 1960 "because it would be clearer than".

 

The message was to be revealed no later than 1960, but the consecration was desired well before this by our Lady - it just did not happen.  It still hasn't, and the third part of the secret speaks of a great apostasy that starts at the top.

 

Quote
Revealing the message was assigned to Pope John XXIII.

 

Who is nowhere expressly mentioned, so this is speculation. 

 

Quote
Also, sedevacantists who attended the chapel I went to as well said "it was not required to believe in Fatima" which is hog-wash because it is contained in the Bible, and we are required to give not only Catholic but divine assent of faith to that which the Bible contains.

 

I agree that Holy Writ tells of these things, but one is not bound to believe it does so.  There has been no official teaching that certain parts of Holy Writ are to believed along the lines you mention.  It is a very reasonable interpretation, but not an official, authoritative one.

 

Quote
Our Mother believed in the pope....but sedevacantists did not.

 

To not believe that a certain man is the Pope, and to not believe in the Papacy, are two different things.  Do you mean she trusted in a man - J23 - she knew would fail her?  I doubt it.

 

Quote
How is it that Our Mother could be wrong about such an important thing while sedevacantists in the pew were better informed than she?

 

How was she wrong in the sede picture? 

 

In your own, she commanded a specific man to do something, and trusted him to do it - pinning the peace of the whole world upon his fidelity - all the while knowing that he would fail her miserably.

 

Quote
The sedevacantists I spoke to never gave a reasonable answer as to how we would get out of the present crisis

 

Nor does any sede-plenist give an answer worth 2 cents - as no one knows the future, especially in darkness like that which surrounds us at present.

 

Quote
They, however, failed to elect a pope from among their rank and file bishops to lead us, and were recognized by me as being even more guilty than the NOers because these sedes were the only ones who were "in the know" yet did nothing about it.

 

When you say "recognized by me", is that supposed to let us know you have some authority 'to recognize' (anything)?

 

Quote
Last, the sedevacantist prime argument is based on St. Robert Bellarmine but they refuse to acknowledge that St. Bellarmine spoke of an heretical pope as being theoretically possible all the while admitting that in practice it was impossible.

 

Your perseverance in this canard is admirable, but St. Robert himself tells us that the common opinion is that it could very well happen.

 

Quote
Rather, Satan brought the popes to the very brink of heresy.

 

Which is a nice, yet vague statement.

 

Quote
The sedevacantist doctrine throws the baby out with the bath water, because it sees Satan's plan very simply.  Now, Satan's plan is simple but the way it was carried out is what makes the difference between the sedevacantist and me.

 

I know of no sede-vacantist who thinks what you are here attributing them all.  Are we supposed to think you see the complexities, whilst the sede-vacantists do not?  This is quite far from reality, Paulus.

 

Quote
Therefore, I rejected the sedevacantist doctrine and aligned with the SSPX or an independent that follows the pope.

 

As I have said repeatedly to you - and others - there is no "sedevacantist doctrine".

 

Quote
He (the pope) lead the parade but is held not guilty of heresy because it was the bad bishops...and his allowing these bad practices....to continue.

 

This is, again, a totally vague remark - proving nothing.

 

Quote
I wrestled with the decisions between 1983 and 1993. I never looked back.

 

You may not have "looked back" since then, but it apparently took you ten years to figure out where to look at all - which sounds like some waffling took place.  I am not condemning you for this, as these days are hard - but ten years is a long time to have wrestled (especially when it is clear you do not even yet understand several basic things about what sedevacantists think).

 

Quote
Sedevacantists believe that the pope must be a good pope....in order to be a true pope.

 

Apparently, during those ten years you did not ever actually learn what sedevacantists think - as no one I know thinks such a stupid thing.

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summatheo
Member

Posts: 62


« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2006, 10:00:PM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos
Quote from: Catholicmilkman

I  once was an empty-seater for a few months but a Fatima Crusader article  changed my mind along with the fact that "obedience is the servant of  faith" and not vice versa and that St. Aquinas says that 'you may even disobedy the Pope if the faith is in danger'.

Wow!  Where does St. Thomas say that? :D I do remember him also talking in  his Summa Theologiae about resisting authority when it is abusive.

 
  "When there is an imminent danger for the Faith, Prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects."
  –St. Thomas Aquinas
  Summa Theologica

 
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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2006, 12:43:AM »

Are there any ex-sedes now in the SSPX?

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LEX SUPREMA SALUS ANIMARUM EST.

REQUIESCANT IN PACE ANIMAE IUSTORUM.
catholicmonarchistmom
Guest
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2006, 09:46:AM »

See, I want to know if there are any sede's in the SSPX, besides me, or do I have to make the final jump from there too??? Honestly, this gets so confusing.

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2006, 09:53:AM »

Quote from: summatheo
"When there is an imminent danger for the Faith, Prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects."
–St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica

Which has nothing to do with the present matter.  The following is from Fr. Cekada's article, Sedevacantism and Mr. Ferrara's Cardboard Pope:

 

RESIST A WAYWARD POPE: St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine and the “pious and eminent” Francisco Suarez teach that one may “resist” a “wayward pope.” (p.50-1)

      Here Mr. Ferrara reprints and interprets for us three quotes from a larger group first published in 1970 in Portugese by the Brazilian traditionalist Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira.

      They are part of Mr. Ferrara’s “direct case” — that is, the system he proposes instead of sedevacantism.

      These endlessly recycled quotes are favorites in SSPX/ CFN “recognize-but-resist” circles, and they pop up all over the place. This allows all sorts of unlikely types to offer assurances about, say, Suarez’ teachings, eminence and piety — all without the inconvenience of slogging through about 21,000 pages of his Latin in really small type.

      I will devote more time to this material at a later date. In the meantime, here are a few brief comments:

      (A) St. Thomas Aquinas: Mr. Ferrara quotes St. Thomas’ justification for fraternal correction of superiors in general, especially when they say something that endangers the faith.  (Summa, II-II.33.4)

      From this standard nugget of spiritual wisdom, Mr. Ferrara, SSPX and countless others have drawn several rather generous practical conclusions about what the Angelic Doctor is supposedly endorsing:

      (1) Catholics are free to decide for themselves on a case-by-case which teachings, laws, sacramental rites and commands emanating from the Roman Pontiff they will accept (very few, thank you) and which they will “resist” and publicly denounce (just about everything).

      (2) Catholics are free to pursue this “resistance” to the Successor of Peter on a continuous basis — so far, forty years and counting, with no end in sight.

      (3) Moreover, “implicit in St. Thomas’ teaching,” says Mr. Ferrara, “is that the pope who commits ‘scandal concerning the faith’ remains the pope, though he may be rebuked and corrected.”

      “Implicit” indeed! So implicit that one cannot find it at all…

      (B) St. Robert Bellarmine: Not long ago, I published an analysis of the Bellarmine “resistance” quote, and based my conclusions upon its context in De Romano Pontifice and upon Cardinal Cajetan’s De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, which Bellarmine cited to support his position.

      Among other things, I demonstrated that Bellarmine was talking about resisting a pope who gives morally evil commands — not one who, like the post-Vatican II popes, teaches doctrinal error or imposes evil laws. In his next chapter, the Saint taught that a heretical pope automatically loses his authority. (my emphasis - g_v)

      Mr. Ferrara’s “answer” to this is that “nowhere does Bellarmine teach that ‘kings or councils,’ much less isolated members of the Church, can judge a pope guilty of heresy.” (p.51)

      Nowhere? Has Mr. Ferrara based this confident assertion on a careful reading of Bellarmine’s entire Opera Omnia  in the 8-volume 1861 Neapolitan quarto edition?

      Would he care to demonstrate, based on that edition and a comparison with Cajetan’s de Comparatione, where my analysis of the quote in question was in error?

      Mr. Ferrara?

      In the meantime, I will deem that he has conceded my conclusion about the quote.

      (C) Francisco Suarez. Mr. Ferrara quotes a passage from Suarez stating that a pope who would “overturn all the rites of the Church founded on apostolic tradition” — think Paul VI, of course — would become a “schismatic.” (p.51-2)

      Mr. Ferrara takes consolation in Suarez’ opinion that a schismatic pope would retain his office, and uses this to shore up the “resistance” argument.

      But Suarez, who tended to lose most controversies with other Catholic theologians, was the only theologian who held that position. The rest all taught that a schismatic pope loses the pontificate automatically because heresy and schism both represented “defection from the faith.”

      Mr. Ferrara also provides us with a “nowhere does Suarez teach…” argument.

      Again, nowhere, Mr. Ferrara? Will we be swearing you in as an expert witness to testify that you have (a) read the entire 30-volume 1858 Paris edition of Suarez’ Opera Omnia, and (b) based your prior factual claim thereupon?

      Finally, Mr. Ferrara quotes Suarez as stating, “If [the Pope]… gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him.”

      In this quote too, Mr. Ferrara, like many other traditionalist writers, sees a grand charter for global “resistance” to the post-Conciliar popes laws, doctrines, etc.

      However, the translation into English is faulty: It mistranslates bonos mores as “right customs,” implying, perhaps, justification for resisting changes a pope legislates in  liturgical traditions, etc.

      In fact the phrase really means “good morals.” (See Suarez, Opera Omnia, 12:321: “Si enim aliquid statuat contra bonos mores, non erit illi parendum.”)

      So once again, Suarez, like Bellarmine, is saying nothing more than this: if a pope gives you a command to do something contrary to the moral law, you don’t have to obey — something like, “I’m ordering you this time, Monsignor: Bring me a blonde chorus girl, and if the piano player complains, shoot him between the eyes…”

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2006, 09:56:AM »

Quote from: catholicmonarchistmom
...I want to know if there are any sede's in the SSPX, besides me...

There are, and some of them are priests - I have seen estimates that from 5 to 20 percent of SSPX priests are sede-vacantist.

 

There are some sedevacantists on this site who go to Mass at SSPX chapels. 

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Paul_VI
Member

Posts: 61


« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2006, 07:44:PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis
 

Quote from: Paul_VI
I aligned with the sedevacantist theory, at first, but never joined a sede chapel.

There is not an initiation, Paulus.  I have not "joined" a chapel, either.

 

Quote
Hence, we must search for a priest that says a valid Mass and one who recognizes the pope as legitimate head of the Church.

 

I recognize the Pope as the head of the Church.  I just do not recognize BXVI as an actual Pope.

 

Quote
Therefore, I listened to all arguments, and applied Fatima as a litmus test.

 

Which is not the way to go about it.  We have seen the fruits of your "litmus test", the partial refutation of which I posted - and you have yet to respond.

 

Quote
Fatima sought the Pope's consecration of Russia, and this was to be performed by the Pope of 1960 "because it would be clearer than".

 

The message was to be revealed no later than 1960, but the consecration was desired well before this by our Lady - it just did not happen.  It still hasn't, and the third part of the secret speaks of a great apostasy that starts at the top.

 

Quote
Revealing the message was assigned to Pope John XXIII.

 

Who is nowhere expressly mentioned, so this is speculation. 

 

Quote
Also, sedevacantists who attended the chapel I went to as well said "it was not required to believe in Fatima" which is hog-wash because it is contained in the Bible, and we are required to give not only Catholic but divine assent of faith to that which the Bible contains.

 

I agree that Holy Writ tells of these things, but one is not bound to believe it does so.  There has been no official teaching that certain parts of Holy Writ are to believed along the lines you mention.  It is a very reasonable interpretation, but not an official, authoritative one.

 

Quote
Our Mother believed in the pope....but sedevacantists did not.

 

To not believe that a certain man is the Pope, and to not believe in the Papacy, are two different things.  Do you mean she trusted in a man - J23 - she knew would fail her?  I doubt it.

 

Quote
How is it that Our Mother could be wrong about such an important thing while sedevacantists in the pew were better informed than she?

 

How was she wrong in the sede picture? 

 

In your own, she commanded a specific man to do something, and trusted him to do it - pinning the peace of the whole world upon his fidelity - all the while knowing that he would fail her miserably.

 

Quote
The sedevacantists I spoke to never gave a reasonable answer as to how we would get out of the present crisis

 

Nor does any sede-plenist give an answer worth 2 cents - as no one knows the future, especially in darkness like that which surrounds us at present.

 

Quote
They, however, failed to elect a pope from among their rank and file bishops to lead us, and were recognized by me as being even more guilty than the NOers because these sedes were the only ones who were "in the know" yet did nothing about it.

 

When you say "recognized by me", is that supposed to let us know you have some authority 'to recognize' (anything)?

 

Quote
Last, the sedevacantist prime argument is based on St. Robert Bellarmine but they refuse to acknowledge that St. Bellarmine spoke of an heretical pope as being theoretically possible all the while admitting that in practice it was impossible.

 

Your perseverance in this canard is admirable, but St. Robert himself tells us that the common opinion is that it could very well happen.

 

Quote
Rather, Satan brought the popes to the very brink of heresy.

 

Which is a nice, yet vague statement.

 

Quote
The sedevacantist doctrine throws the baby out with the bath water, because it sees Satan's plan very simply.  Now, Satan's plan is simple but the way it was carried out is what makes the difference between the sedevacantist and me.

 

I know of no sede-vacantist who thinks what you are here attributing them all.  Are we supposed to think you see the complexities, whilst the sede-vacantists do not?  This is quite far from reality, Paulus.

 

Quote
Therefore, I rejected the sedevacantist doctrine and aligned with the SSPX or an independent that follows the pope.

 

As I have said repeatedly to you - and others - there is no "sedevacantist doctrine".

 

Quote
He (the pope) lead the parade but is held not guilty of heresy because it was the bad bishops...and his allowing these bad practices....to continue.

 

This is, again, a totally vague remark - proving nothing.

 

Quote
I wrestled with the decisions between 1983 and 1993. I never looked back.

 

You may not have "looked back" since then, but it apparently took you ten years to figure out where to look at all - which sounds like some waffling took place.  I am not condemning you for this, as these days are hard - but ten years is a long time to have wrestled (especially when it is clear you do not even yet understand several basic things about what sedevacantists think).

 

Quote
Sedevacantists believe that the pope must be a good pope....in order to be a true pope.

 

Apparently, during those ten years you did not ever actually learn what sedevacantists think - as no one I know thinks such a stupid thing.

 

Several things to note before going on.

 

1)

The original post asked for my personal story regarding defection from the sedevacantist doctrine...without further dialog from current sedevacantists, as tempting as it may be to some.

 

2)

I have demonstrated how you strayed from the sedevacantist / Fatima litmus test in previous posts, and sought direction from the sedevacantist point of view. In fact, not only on this point but on several others as well. All of these you elected to disregard.

 

3)

The sedevacantist doctrine limits the result of the Vatican II disaster to only one possible method of obtaining such a bad end....namely, that we could not possibly have a pope that could do such things (as those from John XXIII to BXI) have done against the Roman Catholic Faith. One must admit that such an approach:

 

         a- Makes Satan out as being a reasonably easy angel to figure out in his method of attack. This would place him (and his henchmen) in a rather easy position to distinguish. There is more to the Vatican II failings than what meets the eye. Hence, I have said the sedevacantists throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

         b- Has limited sedevacantists with no plausible method for Roman Catholics to obtain a "real pope" while maintaining apostolic lineage to the past and our traditions. Thus I have said it is up to the remaining "real bishops" (who are sedevacantists) to elect a pope, yet they quickly fail to do so.

 

          c- Limits the writings of what St. Bellarmine said to the theoretical only, while disregarding his actual point of view on the "heretical pope" matter. The sedevacantist approach and the(ir) interpretation of St. Bellarmine has been tailored to suit their no-pope doctrine. It drags the statements and opinions of Suarez and St. Alphonsus (and others) into the the fray such that these could be la bled as ridiculous or, at least, past candidates for the funny-farm. 

 

The sedevacantist doctrine seeks justification for its cause in the theoretical writings of St. Bellarmine and safe refuge for their actions in Paul IV's bull Cum Ex. The former position neglects the reality of what was said, while the latter hides in the short-shadow of its very proud, revolutionary, guillotine spirit. The sedevacantist separates its body from the head. 

 

Again, I close with saying the original post was looking for stories of personal "sedevacantist conversion". (Your opinions, however, are welcome). It was these three things (listed above) that I faced just as much as anyone else faces in their search for the truth. I took my search deeper; others have not and elected to take the easy road. It was also these three things that you (and others) have elected to not address in other posts, or to address them in such a flippant way as to tangle the thread(s) into obscurity. You have deliberately attempted to get the subject off track. (Not a good debate tactic).

 

 

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2006, 07:52:PM »

You may have gone "deeper", but into what uncharted seas I know not. 

 

You still do not even understand some of the most basic ideas of the sedevacantist position - which you insist upon erroneously calling a "doctrine" - which is prerequisite number one when refuting an idea.

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AdoramusTeChriste
Dances with Chopper

Member

Posts: 5,677



« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2006, 08:42:PM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

Are there any ex-sedes now in the SSPX?

Yes.

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CampeadorShin
Member

Posts: 2,868



« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2006, 09:13:PM »

I don't think you can be a Sede AND an SSPXer.  Though, I think you could be an SSPVer.
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