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Author Topic: How is the chair empty?  (Read 3638 times)
maryetal
Member

Posts: 620


« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2006, 06:39:PM »

So the Catholic faith has come down to debates.  Fruits of VII?

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Ourladyofconsolation06
Veritatem facientes
in caritate

Member

Posts: 1,059


« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 09:00:PM »

Quote from: maryetal
 

So the Catholic faith has come down to debates.  Fruits of VII?

No, these debates center around theological opinions and explanations about and for this crisis.

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20 + C + M + B + 08
Paul_VI
Member

Posts: 61


« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2006, 09:51:PM »

Quote from: Marty
 

The Sede position of the Chair being empty, is it in a spiritual sense or a physical sense? Or both?

 

The sedevacantist position is that the chair of Peter is vacant; that it is currently not occupied and that it has not been occupied since 1958.

 

The sedevacantist believes this based on a hypothetical dialog St. Bellarmine entered into on the possibility of the Catholic Church having an heretical pope. St. Bellarmine, like St. Alphonsus, believed the position possible in theory but impossible in practice.

 

Great Churchmen have debated the possibility of an heretical pope for centuries. The subject was even brought up in several general councils. Further discussion about the issue was abandoned because it can not happen in practice...only in theory...and it was this theoretical discussion St. Bellarmine entered into. An example of the sedevacantist theory is well illustrated as follows:

 

A man can run one mile in 4 minutes. It is 2,500 miles from New York to Los Angelus. If the man starts in New York he will be in LA in:

 

(2,500 miles x 4 minutes) / (60 minutes x 24 hours) = 6.94 days !!

 

In theory...a man can make this run...but in practice it will never happen.

 

The sedevacantist bases his rejection of the last 4 popes on the above theory...that a man can run from New York to LA in 6.94 days. The sedevacantist refuses to see the difference between the theoretical and the actual reality. They would rather be wrong for sake of argument and the fracturing of the Church than to expand their minds into accepting the truth, because it requires eating a rather large piece of humble pie.

 

The Dominican theologian, Melchior Cano (1509-1560) taught explicitly what had been admitted implicitly...that the Church is infallible in the laws which it establishes for all Christian people. He did, however, recognize that that these laws can lack prudence and balance. He made particular mention to the laws of ecclesiastical penalties, censures, excommunications, suspensions, irregularities, and interdicts, but insisted that EVERYTHING in the precepts, decisions, and sanctions of the pope and councils that contributes fully to the life of the faithful is the object of infallibility of the Church in the sense that the Church can command nothing contrary to the Doctrine of Christ or the precepts of reason. (M. Cano, De Locis Theologicis, vol 5, page 138.) This is the same opinion St. Bellarmine held who declared it impossible for the pope to err "in precepts addressed to the entire Church" and "concerning things necessary for salvation". (R. Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, vol. 4, chapter 5).

 

What actually happened was the Vatican II dictates were "so close" to being heretical that all it took was the deliberate or willful mis-interpretation of the local bishops to complete the damage being done. In this way, all involved could say "they did nothing wrong" when in fact they did. Rome erred in making policy that was twisted and impossible to hold...the local bishops failed to question and protect. Consider this analogy:

 

A cook places poison in an identical salt shaker then places it next to the other shaker in the cabinet. When the maid comes into the kitchen she places both on the table...unaware. Is there a law that says the cook can not put poison in a salt shaker? No...but we can see that the cook's doing so is intending to hope that the maid is not diligent in her duty in recognizing the danger....then serving the poison with the salt.

 

That the Vatican II documents are like this we will not deny. This, then, is the legal loop hole used. The documents are both orthodox and hetrodox...thus the confusion and the argument that the Church does not err rather the men that hold lofty positions.

 

The sedevacantist is, at heart, well intended, but they do greater damage than they will admit. Here is wisdom: Beware someone who is a fanatic about... anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2006, 08:36:AM »

Quote from: Paul_VI
Here is wisdom: Beware someone who is a fanatic about... anything.

I find this humorous coming from a fanatical anti-sedevacantist, who rambles on in a thread that asked a simple question - "How is the chair empty?"

 

You did not even contribute to the thread by way of an actual answer to the man's question.

 

Cheers, Paulus.

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2006, 08:41:AM »

Quote from: Paul_VI
That the Vatican II documents are like this we will not deny. This, then, is the legal loop hole used. The documents are both orthodox and hetrodox...thus the confusion and the argument that the Church does not err rather the men that hold lofty positions.

Paulus,

 

This statement is contrary to reason - much less faith.

 

Something cannot be both orthodox and heterodox at the same time.

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2006, 08:45:AM »

Quote from: Paul_VI
The sedevacantist bases his rejection of the last 4 popes on the above theory...that a man can run from New York to LA in 6.94 days. 

I must hand it to you, Paulus.  This is the most absurd argument (and summation of sedevacantism) I have ever seen. 

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CounterRevolutionary
Est. 1789

Member

Posts: 690


« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2006, 03:15:PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Paul_VI
That the Vatican II documents are like this we will not deny. This, then, is the legal loop hole used. The documents are both orthodox and hetrodox...thus the confusion and the argument that the Church does not err rather the men that hold lofty positions.

Paulus,

 

This statement is contrary to reason - much less faith.

 

Something cannot be both orthodox and heterodox at the same time.

I think he means it is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted both ways...

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gladius_veritatis
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2006, 05:02:PM »

This is just a post to make the thread act normal, as without it (for some very odd reason), one cannot access page two except by way of reply - none of which will make any sense to anyone, as this post (I think) will somehow correct the problem.

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Immaculata001
Guest
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2006, 05:27:PM »

I am confused.

 

1)Do sedeprivationists believe, essentially, that the guy wearing the Pope's outfit isn't really the Pope, but we'll humor him and pretend like he is (wink wink, nod nod)?

 

2) How did the chair come to be empty, and how will it be filled?  How do sedes define the moment when it became empty?

 

3) Why would someone put both a shaker full of poison and a shaker full of salt on the table? If your wife/husband did that, wouldn't you call it attempted murder?  Doesn't the fact that your wife/husband would have gone to such extraordinary lengths to get you to, potentially, poison yourself show their own malice, not their own ignorance?

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2006, 06:09:PM »

Quote from: Immaculata001
1)Do sedeprivationists believe, essentially, that the guy wearing the Pope's outfit isn't really the Pope, but we'll humor him and pretend like he is (wink wink, nod nod)?

No, but they say he (and he alone) is in possession of a valid election, and can become Pope (if a few things take place).

Quote
2) How did the chair come to be empty, and how will it be filled?  How do sedes define the moment when it became empty?

 

There is not unanimity as to these points, and I cannot devote the necessary time to explain (even briefly) the different ideas at the moment.  

 

Quote
3) Why would someone put both a shaker full of poison and a shaker full of salt on the table? If your wife/husband did that, wouldn't you call it attempted murder?  Doesn't the fact that your wife/husband would have gone to such extraordinary lengths to get you to, potentially, poison yourself show their own malice, not their own ignorance?

 

Indeed it would.

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