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Author Topic: Questions concerning SSPX  (Read 7383 times)
ChantCd
Guest
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2006, 04:07:PM »

Quote from: CounterRevolutionary
Quote from: Paul_VI
 

 

Was there a state of emergency?....two popes said there was...and so did Ratzinger. Last year Cardinal Hoyos (sp) said the same thing. Numerous papers were written about this and...LeFebvre was found innocent. The reason we do not have a public, Roman statement on this fact is because it would place shame on the modernists in Rome today.

 

The consecrations are valid and Rome recognizes them as such. 

  

 

 

can you provide some sources? that would make me very comftorable with the SSPX. Especially a quote of any of those men saying the ArchBishop LeFebvre was innocent...

 

 

 

[/QUOTE]

1. Canon Law says that if the Prelate THINKS there is a state of emergency, there is no automatic excommunication for consecrating bishops. Note the wording in "Ecclesia Dei" -- the Pope basically says they incurred the automatic excommunication -- he never excommunicated them personally.

(As St. Pius X did here against the Old Catholics: http://www.chantcd.com/real_excomm.htm) Compare with http://www.chantcd.com/c/ecclesia_dei.htm .

 

2. When Campos was "regularlized" a few years ago, their Bishop (Rangel) was accepted as a Catholic Bishop, even though he was consecrated only by 3 bishops of the SSPX (the only bishop the 4 have consecrated, BTW -- another good sign. They're not setting up bishops all over the place, which would be the case if the SSPX were a parallel church)

 

3. Anyone who believes the excommunications are true and binding has not thought about this: WHY wasn't Abp. Lefebvre ever given a trial? Luther was condemned for his doctrine, and excommunicated. The Diet of Worms gave him his shot at opposing the Roman Catholic Church. Archbishop Lefebvre would have used such an occasion to demonstrate how modernism and the current trends in the Church go against everything the Church has taught so far (pre-1970). But he was not given that chance, for obvious reasons.

 

Doesn't that smell a bit fishy? If he's just a rebel schismatic, why not give him a public trial, and have a cadre of Roman theologians shoot down his sophisms and fallacies? Perhaps because the truth is on the Archbishop's side...

 

In Christ,

 

Matthew

 

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2006, 04:52:PM »

Quote from: ChantCd
You need to read the history of the Church, lives of the Saints, spend much time praying/meditating, etc. and ask God where you should go to attend Mass to preserve your faith during these times.

Thanks for the advice. 

 

I have read quite a bit actually, and still do.  I have prayed quite a bit, and still do.

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gladius_veritatis
Guest
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2006, 04:58:PM »

Quote from: Paul_VI
...This is the difference between the radical left and right...the modernist and the sedevacantist. Both are wrong and at fault.

I have always admired your uncanny ability to read the interior movements of men, Paulus, even knowing when there is actual guilt with respect to actions.

 

Tell me, were you "at fault" all the while you were a sedevacantist?

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2006, 08:30:PM »

I'm just going to be a gadfly here ... I attend an SSPX chapel by default at the moment, if that counts for anything, but frankly I don't find any of these arguments convincing.

 

So pardon me for providing the irritant.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
Indeed, as posted elsewhere, the CPA was the target of Pius XII's modification of the 1917 code. He did this in, as I recall, 1954 and his aim was indeed the threat of schism from Chinese Catholics...not Arb. LeFebvre.

 

That's quite irrelevant.  The law is the law.  It was created to punish an organization for consecrating bishops without papal mandate; it was later used to punish an organization for consecrating bishops without papal mandate.  The continuity is clear.  It doesn't matter that the law was originally created because of a situation the CPA created; are we arguing that this law can now, because of its origin, only ever be applied to the CPA?

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
The LeFebvre incident was not even conceived or thought of.

 

Actually, it was, in its essentials; the incident of an organization deciding to consecrate bishops without papal approval was the target.  I would agree in this sense: Pius XII would probably have never imagined that a faithful Catholic archbishop, indeed, one of his own Papal Delegates, would ever disobey a papal command.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
We, however, have the new code of canon law and LeFevre is, by that very same law, held not guilty.

 

That's only true if you want to claim that the Pope is not the final interpreter of Canon Law.  I don't think you wish to claim this.  According to the Pope's interpretation of the Law and his final ruling, Lefebvre is guilty.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
Even under the 1917 code LeFebvre is innocent of any charges that could be leveled against him, because there was a grave danger and this was so stated by Paul VI and JP2.

 

Apparently not, or JP2 wouldn't have forbid Lefebvre from doing the consecrations.  Again, according to the Pope's ruling, there was not sufficient reason for Lefebvre to do the consecrations.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
Numerous papers were written about this and...LeFebvre was found innocent. The reason we do not have a public, Roman statement on this fact is because it would place shame on the modernists in Rome today.

 

Unfortunately, none of those "numerous papers" have any binding canonical authority.  The only canonical ruling that counts is the one finally made by the Supreme Legislator, the Pope, and he found Lefebvre guilty.  The reason we do not have a public statement of this "fact" (of Lefebvre's innocence) is because it is not a fact; the fact is that the Pope judged him to be guilty.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
The consecrations are valid and Rome recognizes them as such.

 

That is completely and totally irrelevant.  Eastern Orthodox consecrations are also valid, and Rome recognizes them as such.  At best, you've just proved that the SSPX is in the same situation as the Eastern Orthodox - in schism.

 

Quote from: Paul_VI
At this time we see the radical left and the radical right splitting further from the core of our faith...held constant by the SSPX.

 

That's a very, very weak argument.  Know why?  Because you can always find someone just a bit to the right, and a bit to the left.

 

On the contrary, the neo-Catholic position is the right one, because the extreme liberals are to the left, and the SSPX is to the right.

 

No, wait, the Sedevacantist position is the right one, because we can see the SSPX to the liberal left of this, and the Old Catholics to the extreme right.

 

On second thought, maybe the Protestants are right, because we have the Catholics to the right, and the Unitarians to the left.

 

Sorry, it's a bad argument.

 

Quote from: ChantCd
1. Canon Law says that if the Prelate THINKS there is a state of emergency, there is no automatic excommunication for consecrating bishops. Note the wording in "Ecclesia Dei" -- the Pope basically says they incurred the automatic excommunication -- he never excommunicated them personally.

 

That whole bit about the Prelate thinking there is a state of emergency is pulled out from under his feet once the Supreme Legislator rules to the contrary; there can be no confusion of judgment on the Prelate's part after that point - his superior has spoken.  He cannot claim to have been unaware of his superior's desires, intentions, or authentic interpretation of the Law.

 

If the Law were interpreted the way you're interpreting it, no one could ever be excommunicated again; what prevents this Canon from turning into a relativistic free-for-all is that the Pope is proclaimed to be the Supreme Legislator, and his interpretation of the Law is normative.

 

It would be one thing if Lefebvre just woke up one day and said "Eureka!  I have to do episcopal consecrations now," and then went ahead and did it, with Rome finding out after the fact.  But he knew what he was doing, so did Rome, the Pope gave him fair warning, and Lefebvre went ahead anyway - there was absolutely no confusion on his part that he was disobeying an order.

 

As for the argument that "the Pope basically says they incurred the automatic excommunication -- he never excommunicated them personally," this holds no weight whatsoever, because the exact same kind of excommunication was pronounced in the case of CPA bishops a few months ago, as well as in the case of those crazy women who were so-called "ordained" as "priests."  If such an excommunication is of no worth in Lefebvre's case, then it also must be of no worth in the CPA's case, or the "women priests" case.

 

Quote from: ChantCd
Anyone who believes the excommunications are true and binding has not thought about this: WHY wasn't Abp. Lefebvre ever given a trial? Luther was condemned for his doctrine, and excommunicated. The Diet of Worms gave him his shot at opposing the Roman Catholic Church. Archbishop Lefebvre would have used such an occasion to demonstrate how modernism and the current trends in the Church go against everything the Church has taught so far (pre-1970). But he was not given that chance, for obvious reasons.

 

The reason no one has "thought about this" is because it's irrelevant; Lefebvre wasn't excommunicated for teaching heresy, which would naturally require some kind of trial.  He was excommunicated for violating Canon Law; there was no need for a trial because there was no question in the matter.  The Pope said "don't do it," and Lefebvre did it; there are no more facts to consider in the case.

 

To quote from Pius XII on the subject:

 

Quote
... it has been clearly and expressly laid down in the canons that it pertains to the one Apostolic See to judge whether a person is fit for the dignity and burden of the episcopacy, and that complete freedom in the nomination of bishops is the right of the Roman Pontiff.

 

...

... it follows that bishops who have been neither named nor confirmed by the Apostolic See, but who, on the contrary, have been elected and consecrated in defiance of its express orders, enjoy no powers of teaching or of jurisdiction since jurisdiction passes to bishops only through the Roman Pontiff as We admonished in the Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis ...

...

 

Acts requiring the power of Holy Orders which are performed by ecclesiastics of this kind, though they are valid as long as the consecration conferred on them was valid, are yet gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious. (Ad Apostolorum Principis, 38-41)

 

Lefebvre named his own bishops and personally determined them to be fit for the episcopacy, when - as Pius XII taught - that is a right which belongs to the Holy See; in other words, Lefebvre violated the freedom and rights of the Pope.  As such, he committed a sacrilege and a "criminal" act.  The bishops he consecrated, according to Pius XII, not only have no jurisdiction, but have no teaching powers either.

 

Theoretically, Lefebvre knew this, and only consecrated them to be dispensers of the sacraments of Holy Orders and Confirmation; but we all know the Society bishops do, in fact, take it upon themselves to teach - and they often teach the faithful, who greatly revere them and listen to them carefully, not to listen to the Holy See (for example, on the question of the New Mass, the Indult Mass, the Second Vatican Council, etc.). 

 

I leave open the question of whether Lefebvre did what he absolutely had to do, or whether there was another way; I also leave open the question of whether his excommunication will one day be declared unjust, and subsequently lifted.  But at the moment, these are speculations, and not fact; the facts are that he disobeyed a Pope, arrogated to himself a right and a liberty that Pius XII said belongs to the Holy See, and committed a sacrilegious act, for which he was excommunicated.

 

All subsequent defenses of Lefebvre have, unfortunately, nothing more than a Monday-morning Quarterback character about them.  We can argue all we want, in hindsight, about his motives, whether the ruling was fair, etc., but in the end these defenses have the most unfortunate handicap of being contrary to the only Canonical opinion that matters: the Pope's.

 

May the Archbishop rest in peace.

 

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AdoramusTeChriste
Dances with Chopper

Member

Posts: 5,677



« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2006, 09:24:PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

If one takes the new rites of ordination and consecration, as well as the NOM, to be valid, then where is the "state of emergency"?  Just work to eradicate the "abuses"...

 

The abuse is not limited to the NOM. The catechesis is a disaster as well, and the shepherds at the local level are not pastoring their flocks. The longer one attends the NO the more damage is done to their faith. My 3 eldest children attended a NO school and each of them fell away from the Faith in varying degrees. Through constant prayer, one has returned to Tradition, and his family with him, Deo gratias. Another has tried, but the obstacles are too great for her right now, so she is trying to deal with the NO. It is a great trial for her. The 3rd could care less if she ever goes to Mass again.

 

Part of the reason may very well be that I had to correct the errors that they brought home from school, such as "the Mass is like a party."  (No dear, the Mass is a sacrifice.) The garbage they learned at the local Catholic school had to be corrected at home- surely sending mixed signals while leaving their young minds confused and with the impression that there is no absolute truth.

 

Looks like an emergency from my chair.  Perhaps those of you reading this would be so kind as to pray for all fallen away Catholics, especially those who have had little opportunity to learn what the Faith really teaches.

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AMDG
Guest
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2006, 10:41:PM »

Quote from: lumengentleman

I'm just going to be a gadfly here ... I attend an SSPX chapel by default at the moment, if that counts for anything, but frankly I don't find any of these arguments convincing.

So pardon me for providing the irritant.


This is silly Jacob. Stop dumping on the SSPX while assisting at mass there. Get yourself to the nearest indult or conservative NO and be done with it.
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Mark
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: INFP/ENFP
Posts: 1,391



« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2006, 11:08:PM »

I think that any guilt or innocence on the part of Lefebvre is entirely subject to his interior disposition at the time of the consecrations of the four bisops.

 

On a side note: I've heard that St. Patrick of Ireland consecrated over 30 bishops against the orders of the Pope - and that he did so because of 'grave necessity' at the time. Does anyone have more info on this?

 

 

 

 

 

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2006, 07:28:AM »

Quote from: AMDG

This is silly Jacob. Stop dumping on the SSPX while assisting at mass there. Get yourself to the nearest indult or conservative NO and be done with it.

 

Thank you, but no.

 

I am not of the false and misguided opinion that attendance at the SSPX means I have to adopt every last one of their positions, or become an "SSPX cheerleader" who defends them from even the least suggestion of wrong-doing.

 

Or are they really as schismatic as everyone says?  Is it a situation where the SSPX has its own peculiar dogmas (particularly concerning Lefebvre), the rejection of which merits immediate excommunication?

 

I'll tell you what's "silly": thinking that because you receive Holy Communion from a priest of the SSPX, you must now defend the founder of the SSPX as a saint and exonerate him of all culpability, and also denounce anyone who thinks otherwise.

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2006, 07:36:AM »

Quote from: Mark

I think that any guilt or innocence on the part of Lefebvre is entirely subject to his interior disposition at the time of the consecrations of the four bisops.

 

How can that be, Mark?  Are you going to apply that same standard to all other persons in the Church who were first warned of their impending excommunication, and then actually served with the excommunication?

 

Luther was innocent because the matter rests entirely upon his interior disposition.

 

No, that won't work.  And why?  Because no matter what Luther thought in the interior forum - and he certainly thought he was right - the fact of the matter is that the problem moved out of the subjective realm into the objective realm the minute Holy Mother Church issued Her correction and warning.  After that point, what Luther thought or felt in the interior forum was irrelevant; he had been corrected by the Church and warned to submit to Her authority.

 

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  No matter what Lefebvre thought he was supposed to do, Holy Mother Church corrected him and warned him not to go ahead with the consecrations.  Lefebvre refused to submit to the Church's authority.

 

If the Church's explicit judgment, correction, warning, etc. isn't enough to move a case from the subjective realm to the objective realm, then every case is a matter of the interior forum, and there are no heretics or schismatics at all.

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Marybonita
Member

Posts: 948


« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2006, 12:38:PM »

 

"If the Church's explicit judgment, correction, warning, etc. isn't enough to move a case from the subjective realm to the objective realm, then every case is a matter of the interior forum, and there are no heretics or schismatics at all."

 

The whole juridical system is based on the subjective vs. the objective. Murder is most foul but was it murder?

 

Otherwise all cases would be open-and-shut and there would be no trials.

 

Before the good and saintly Archbishop consecrated the Bishops you may be sure he consulted the very best theologians available to make sure that the radical step he took was acceptable under Church law. His action was unilateral but the consultation process certainly wasn't. The modernists play the Pope-card so well that it makes the senses reel and objectivity is lost on all sides: There are limits on the ordinary fallible personal judgements of a Pope.

 

I agree with AMDG Jacob - perhaps it would be better if you attended an indult since your reasoning is leaning in that direction.

 

Faithfully attendin Society Masses and receiving their Sacraments demands a refined discernment. Not everyone is capable of it and those who disagree cause strife in the congregation when serenity is what we seek.

 

This is suggested with all charity.

 

God bless!

 

 

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