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Author Topic: The Crisis is so sad.  (Read 12180 times)
HMiS
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Posts: 6,172



« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2006, 07:03:AM »

Quote

Nope.  He didn't need to.  Lefebvre and his four bishops did it to themselves.

Nonsense. To incur excommunication, one must not be able to appeal to a state of necessity or grave fear (which was probable and in fact proven in case of Lefebvre). The appeal made by the Archbishop and Bishop de Castro Mayer in Rome at the Vatican Rota, was never replied to, never processed, and as such the excommunication can already be seen as null and void and never incurred.   

 

However, while the Pope can excommunicate anyone in the entire world, the local bishops can and have to in their dioceses. Therefore, do you still hold St. Jeanne d'Arc died outside of communion with the Catholic Church? She was excommunicated by the French bishops! The authority of a bishop in excommunicating is as large as that of the Pontiff, only with that difference, that the Roman Pontiff can excommunicate all subjects in the entire world and the bishop only inside his diocese.

 

Quote
Martin Luther said the same thing:

 

Yes, but Martin Luther committed an act that was directed against the FAITH, an act of heresy. An intrinsically evil act can never be excused and always incurs the penalty. That's equally true for the schism caused by the bishops of the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association in 1957. They were excommunicated not directly for the consecrations of bishops in itself, but because they intended and effectively did, autonomously appoint those bishops to Episcopal Sees in China, which is an infringement upon the privileges and authority of the Pope. That's an intrinsically evil act of schism (they usurped ordinary jurisdiction). The same for the Ultrajectine Jansenist Church of Holland, which in 1723 autonomously appointed the illicitly ordained bishop Cornelius van Steenoven to the exempt Archdiocesan See of Utrecht, another infringement upon the prerogatives of the Popes, and an act of schism (usurpation of ordinary jurisdiction and a see). 

 

But neither of those aspects apply to the Consecration of Bishops by Archbishop Marcel-François Lefebvre CSSp and Bishop Antônio de Castro Mayer in June, 1988. They had begged for years for a bishop to be allowed to be consecrated, they had received permission, they had been frustrated for years and years. They then chose, considering their responsibility in the Church's crisis, to do an intrinsically good act (Sacramentally Ordaining a Bishop is a good act in itself, part of the Sacrament of Orders), under grave fear and under honest persuasion to be doing their best, in accordance with Roman Catholic doctrine and discipline.

 

Final Note: Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. De Castro Mayer only conferred the sacramental episcopal potence, they never appointed or usurped ordinary jurisdiction upon the consecrated, nor did the consecrated later claim to possess such. We are talking merely about the conferral of sacramental grace of bishop and his potence. Not about jurisdiction and schism, which was present in all other instances of illicit episcopal consecration in the past of Church history. It is extremely important to consider this, as it may have occasioned John Paul II (Cardinal Gantin) to act as he did, and having to later to come to see, that none applied, did not want to revert as that could touch his "authority".

 

They were excused by the follow Canons of the 1983 Codex Iuris Canonici:

 

Can. 1323 No one is liable to a penalty who, when violating a law or precept:

1ƒ has not completed the sixteenth year of age;

2ƒ was, without fault, ignorant of violating the law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance

3ƒ acted under physical force, or under the impetus of a chance occurrence which the person could not foresee or if foreseen could not avoid;

 

4ƒ acted under the compulsion of grave fear, even if only relative, or by reason of necessity or grave inconvenience, unless, however, the act is intrinsically evil or tends to be harmful to souls;

 

Quote
Ordaining bishops is not intrinsically evil, but usurping jurisdiction and creating a parallel Church ís. The latter two things were not committed by Abp. Lefebvre and his ordained bishops.

5ƒ acted, within the limits of due moderation, in lawful self-defense or defense of another against an unjust aggressor;

6ƒ lacked the use of reason, without prejudice to the provisions of canon. 1324, ß1, n. 2 and 1325;

thought, through no personal fault, that some one of the circumstances existed which are mentioned in nn. 4 or 5.

Can. 1324 ß1 The perpetrator of a violation is not exempted from penalty, but the penalty prescribed in the law or precept must be diminished, or a penance substituted in its place, if the offence was committed by:

1ƒ one who had only an imperfect use of reason;

2ƒ one who was lacking the use of reason because of culpable drunkenness or other mental disturbance of a similar kind;

3ƒ one who acted in the heat of passion which, while serious, nevertheless did not precede or hinder all mental deliberation and consent of the will, provided that the passion itself had not been deliberately stimulated or nourished

4ƒ a minor who has completed the sixteenth year of age;

 

one who was compelled by grave fear, even if only relative, or by reason of necessity or grave inconvenience, if the act is intrinsically evil or tends to be harmful to souls;

 

Quote
Even for those erroneously thinking consecrating bishops, thus conferring a Sacrament, is intrinsically evil, this says all: excommunication had to be diminished. One cannot reasonably hold, that Abp. Lefebvre was not compelled or felt compelled by grave fear.

6ƒ one who acted in lawful self-defense or defense of another against an unjust aggressor, but did not observe due moderation;

7ƒ one who acted against another person who was gravely and unjustly provocative;

one who erroneously, but culpably, thought that some one of the circumstances existed which are mentioned in Can. 1323, nn. 4 or 5;

9ƒ one who through no personal fault was unaware that a penalty was attached to the law or precept;

10ƒ one who acted without full imputability, provided it remained grave.

ß2 A judge can do the same if there is any other circumstance present which would reduce the gravity of the offence.

ß3 In the circumstances mentioned in ß1, the offender is not bound by a latae sententiae penalty.

That really tells us all. And you, Mr Michael, may disagree with me, but the Vatican Tribunal has never dared to respond to this, nor accepted an appeal (which is abuse of judicial powers and grave sin of injustice), many Vatican officials and canonists said, they could not believe excommunication applied. The 1989 Professor of Canon Law of the Pontifical University of Louvain (Leuven), Belgium, quite a Modernist university and NOT a traditionalist professor, told one of his students (an adult Roman Catholic male, judge, lawyer and scientist and former officer in the Dutch Armed Forces): "Don't talk about excommunication! You are not going to believe that document filled with faults and errors, are you? There was no schism, no heresy, and there was grave fear, why an excommunication? None applied, I say to you. They excommunicated a most Roman reactionary there is. That was not done correctly and judicially. Church politics! I say you."  That says enough.

 

You do not have to agree with me, as I have no authority, but I do not agree with the Vatican, on reasonable grounds, and so do numerous Church authorities, professors, canon lawyers. And the Vatican is known for its Church politics penalties in the Lefebvre case all along, as in 1988 it judicially promised a Bishop (sic!) to be ordained by a SUSPENDED (1976) Archbishop for a supposedly EXEMPT (1976) institute of priestly life. That tells you how careful the church politicians handle Ecclesiastical penalties, and how they handled them in this case. Not, or just as a Machine gun to mow down the "Lefebvrists".

 

We will shortly see a definitive response to this 1988 case, I guess. The SSPX will not take a simple "lifting" of these "excommunications", but will make the demand, that it be declared invalid and not-applying.

 

There have been a LOT of invalid excommunications by Popes and Bishops in the past (e.g. against Fr. Savonarola O.P., now in process of beatification), the most notable being St. Jeanne d'Arc. Another French native who acted under grave fear, divine compulsion, and received such a penalty. She was made a Saint in 1920. And she was a Saint all along. The canonization by Pope Benedict XV and the beatification by Pope St. Pius X did not free her from hell (as per impossibile), but confirmed her sanctity from the very point of her death, that she was in heaven.

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
HMiS
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Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2006, 07:09:AM »

Quote

The Pope, as the Supreme Legislator, has the jurisdictional authority to render the final interpretation and application of Canon Law in any given circumstance.  His ruling is the objective one.  That's what it means for him to be the Supreme Legislator.

 

Who denied this? What's your point? Of course the Roman Pontiff gives Canon Law and is not to be judged by anyone. But who said so?

 

We merely said that this particular excommunication decree does not apply, that excommunications are not infallible or morally binding, and have been reversed posthumously in the past and will be in the future.

 

Being Supreme Legislator does not mean, that the Pope can change reality and validly excommunicate people who are innocent, nor that he cannot err in defining whether a latae sententiae penalty applied. That a Pope signed a decree by the Congregation of Bishops, does not make it infallible or all-valid, if the subject in question is exempted by Canon Law. John Paul II could not magically sim-sala-bim change reality and suddenly make Lefebvre not  acting under grave compulsion and grave fear for the state of souls. To allege he could, is preposterous, non-ROman Catholic, is to attribute to the Roman Pontiff false capacities, contradicted by the First Vatican Council, its authoritative interpretation by Pope Pius IX and Bp. Joseph Fessler, and as such a grave error. The errors of infallibilism (that is: All-and-Everywhere-Infallibility-of-the-Pope-even-if-calling-a-spoon-a-knife) and impeccabilism were rejected by the Holy See in the past.  

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2006, 07:11:AM »

Since you are repeating, rather amateuristically, the arguments proposed by many hating the Society of St. Pius Xth and even exaggerating by applying titles not applying to this cases, to this case still, I have a question for you:

 

Why do you still attend the Masses of the SSPX?

 

Are they not dangerous to "imbue [into you] a schismatic mentality"?

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2006, 09:08:AM »

Quote from: HMiS
Quote
The Pope, as the Supreme Legislator, has the jurisdictional authority to render the final interpretation and application of Canon Law in any given circumstance.  His ruling is the objective one.  That's what it means for him to be the Supreme Legislator.

 

Who denied this?

 

You, for example.  The Supreme Legislator, being aware of the facts related to the case, warned the Archbishop against proceeding, warned him of the consequences, and judged the matter after the fact.

 

But you, a layman, just shrug this off and say, "Nope, the excommunication was invalid, it doesn't apply."

 

You don't have the authority to say so, and you can quote me all the private opinions of all the Canon Lawyers in Rome who agree with you - it's irrelevant.  The Pope gave the ruling, and he has Pius XII backing him up on the fact that a consecration of this kind is "criminal and sacrilegious."

 

I'm just amazed at the audacity of some people who claim "yes, we're in union with Rome," but then cling to their private judgment in a matter of the Pope's jurisdiction, contradicting the ruling of the Pope.

 

Your arguments, if they have any merit at all, can be used just as effectively to exonerate the Chinese Patriotic Association; I'm quite certain that they felt their actions were justified and necessary, but what do we care about that?  Who cares what the CPA thinks?  They disobeyed the Pope, and committed an objectively sacrilegious crime, so they can keep all their excuses to themselves, as far as I'm concerned.  Rome has spoken.

 

But what's sauce for the goose ...

 

Quote from: HMiS
We merely said that this particular excommunication decree does not apply

 

And who are you to make that judgment?  How does this demonstrate your submission to the Roman Pontiff, HMiS?

 

Quote from: HMiS
Being Supreme Legislator does not mean, that the Pope can change reality and validly excommunicate people who are innocent

 

There is no question of Lefebvre's innocence in this case, because that innocence is decided by the Supreme Legislator.  Again, we are not talking about a case where the Pope had to come in and consider what took place after the fact; Lefebvre's case was presented before-hand, the Pope made a judgment (i.e., don't consecrate the bishops, we'll give you a bishop in August), and Lefebvre refused to submit.

 

Quote from: HMiS
John Paul II could not magically sim-sala-bim change reality and suddenly make Lefebvre not  acting under grave compulsion and grave fear for the state of souls.

 

And Lefebvre could not "magically sim-sala-bim" alter reality and suddenly conjur up a state of necessity, after the Pope declared that no such state existed.  The Pope agreed to give the SSPX a bishop, but Lefebvre got antsy and decided to do it his own way.  That's fine, he had the Free Will to do so, but he also had to bear the consequences of that decision, and it's absolutely ludicrous for a layman like you or me to sit in our armchairs and pretend that we can magically make the papal ruling null and void, by quoting from our personal copies of Canon Law like some bizarre breed of Roman Protestants.

 

Quote from: HMiS
To allege he could, is preposterous, non-ROman Catholic

 

No, what is non-Roman Catholic is to personally contravene an authoritative judgment of the Supreme Pontiff, who possesses supreme jurisdiction in these matters.  You'll find that in Vatican I, Bl. Pius IX, and Bp. Fessler as well.

 

 

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HMiS
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Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2006, 09:51:AM »

Quote
but we aren't going to gloss over real problems with the society simply because we would prefer to attend the TLM.

So you are implying, rather uncharitably, that I am glossing over "real problems" because I just prefer to attend the Traditional Latin Mass?

 

Such crap.

 

Many "defending" the "solemn excommunications" are just doing so, because they once upon a time bashed the SSPX and Lefebvre, and are not willing to admit, they were dead wrong.

 

As said, not even the Vatican is willing to admit, as they never processed the appeal of Lefebvre to the Apostolic Rota. I refer you to the secretary Count Nero Capponi for further details on this.

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.


HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2006, 09:57:AM »

Your version, Mr Michael, is the one ape-like brabbled after that of the Vatican's defenders.

 

Your comparison with the Schismatic Chinese consecrations is sickening (as the Chinese usurped jurisdiction). Before 1957 the illicit ordination of a bishop was punished by suspensio a divinis, not by excommunication. See the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The act of ordination of bishops in itself is not sacrilegious, nor schismatic at all. It was never defined as such, nor placed in Canon Law as such!

 

How come the Supreme Legislator can "decide" whether someone acts under grave fear or not? So John Paul II by his very own will "decides" Lefebvre was not acting under grave fear or compulsion? That's not canon law, not justice, not judicial at all.

 

You are just repeating other people's essays, without references, without argumentation. Please provide references, that 1323 does not apply to Lefebvre, because Gantin (=John Paul II) had sent a canonical warning that he would be excommunicated?

 

The whole case stinks, and you are repeating calumny, false arguments, exaggeration of the Pope's authority, to indict an Archbishop acting under grave fear for the salvation of souls.

 

I do not claim to make the decision of the invalidity for anyone but my own conscience and those who in conscience can agree with my arguments. You are just as much a layman as me, Jacob. Just as much.

 

You are still obliged to explain to me, how denying the validity of a latae sententiae excommunication declaration is equal to denying submission to the Roman Pontiff. By the way, schism is one of Communion with the Roman Pontiff, not of obedience. Fr Jone OFMCap for example in his "Catholic Moral Theology" (Berlin, 1935) says, that "one is not a schismatic for simply disobeying the Roman Pontiff, even if this may be for a very long time." Submission must be understood as in conceding the Pope has the highest authority and declaration of being in communion with him in the one Catholic Church. Not in a false "Befehl ist Befehl" sense of absolute obedience in which the accusor (JP II) also "defines" the guilt of the indicted, and does not allow an appeal to be correctly filed and processed.

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
CampeadorShin
Member

Posts: 2,868



« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2006, 10:21:AM »

Lumen posted:
Quote
If a man will not listen "even to the Church," well ... read v. 17.

Yes, and the Pope was the one who would not listen even to the Church.  There was warrant for the Archbishop's actions.  The Mass survived through the SSPX until the insult mass came about.
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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2006, 11:01:AM »

Quote from: HMiS
Your version, Mr Michael, is the one ape-like brabbled after that of the Vatican's defenders.

 

That may be, but at least my mother doesn't wear army boots.

 

Quote from: HMiS
Your comparison with the Schismatic Chinese consecrations is sickening (as the Chinese usurped jurisdiction).

 

Yes, and that's why they are both excommunicated as well as schismatic; Lefebvre committed the crime, for which he was excommunicated, but because he did not grant his bishops jurisdiction, he has yet to be declared a schismatic.

 

The comparison holds.

 

Quote from: HMiS
See the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

 

No.  We're under the 1983 Code currently, and that is the Code that was in force when Lefebvre disobeyed the Pope.

 

Quote from: HMiS
The act of ordination of bishops in itself is not sacrilegious

 

Now you're contradicting Pius XII.

 

Quote
Acts requiring the power of Holy Orders which are performed by ecclesiastics of this kind, though they are valid as long as the consecration conferred on them was valid, are yet gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious. (AAP, 41)

 

Please read that carefully before responding.  His Holiness says nothing about schism or granting jurisdiction in this paragraph (he couldn't, because he says these acts are "valid" - he's certainly not saying that jurisdiction is granted, he's talking specifically about the conferral of the sacrament in and of itself), and in the context, the reason why this act is intrinsically sacrilegious is because "it pertains to the one Apostolic See to judge whether a person is fit for the dignity and burden of the episcopacy," and "complete freedom in the nomination of bishops is the right of the Roman Pontiff."

 

That's a universal norm, regardless of whether the offender is in China or Econe.  Lefebvre usurped the right of the Pope to nominate and judge whether Fellay, Williamson, et al, were "fit for the dignity and burden of the episcopacy."  That makes his act sacrilegious, objectively.

 

Quote from: HMiS
I do not claim to make the decision of the invalidity for anyone but my own conscience and those who in conscience can agree with my arguments.

 

Your conscience does not trump a decision of the Holy See.  You sound like my first-year catechumen students, who don't understand yet that conscience must be rightly formed by the Church.

 

Quote from: HMiS
You are just as much a layman as me, Jacob. Just as much.

 

Never said otherwise.  However, in this case, I am a layman who is standing on the authority of the Supreme Pontiff; you are standing on your own private judgment, by your own admission. 

 

Quote from: HMiS
You are still obliged to explain to me, how denying the validity of a latae sententiae excommunication declaration is equal to denying submission to the Roman Pontiff.

 

I am obliged to do no such thing.  You are implicitly denying the right of the Pope to govern in jurisdictional matters, because apparently his judgment withers away into nothingness when it comes into contact with your private judgment of conscience.  He can rule and judge all he wants, but none of it means anything to you if his judgments don't conform to your conscience; you have it totally backwards. 

 

Further, you're openly promoting this inversion of reality, and encouraging others to over-rule or ignore the judgments of the Supreme Pontiff based on their own private opinion and conscience.  That, in my book, makes you dangerous.

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2006, 11:03:AM »

Quote from: CampeadorShin
Lumen posted:
Quote
If a man will not listen "even to the Church," well ... read v. 17.


Yes, and the Pope was the one who would not listen even to the Church.

 

Sounds like you need to go back to the Baltimore Catechism and refresh your memory.  The Pope doesn't "listen" to the Church, he governs and rules the Church with supreme authority.  Like HMiS, you seem to have an inverted view of the way the hierarchy works.

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CampeadorShin
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Posts: 2,868



« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2006, 11:05:AM »

Unless he errs.
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