SSPX...

[Catholicmilkman]

Daily Communion was only a suggestion by St. Pius X and not a command or law put on the whole Church. The Law of the Church still stands that Catholics must only confess and Communicate once a year during Eastertime. As well the Church has always allowed for the faithful to not have to receive doubtful Sacraments. It's better to be safe than sorry so I'll watch and wait for a dogmatic Council to define on this matter until that time I will continue to offer the Holy Sacrifice at SSPX missions with complete orthodoxy.

The obligation of receiving Communion is only once a year, but we receive graces every time we receive if we do so properly disposed. If attending the NO is too distracting for you, and a source of anger rather than devotion, then it's probably better to avoid daily Mass if there's no TLM available. But there are great advantages to receiving daily, and we shouldn't reject those graces without very careful consideration.

As well those Graces are in proportion to the faith and devotion of the priest to our Lord, and that is not Donatism which only deals with validly of the Sacrements from heretics and unholy person. The Church and right reason dictate that the Grace of a Sacrament does depend on the faith of the minister, otherwise there would be no reason not to go to the schimatic Eastern priests. I fail to see how persons without the virtue of faith can be an instrument of Sanctying Grace though they can most certainly administer valid Sacraments.

[Sophia]

I await, Sophia, your explanation (or, better, clarification) as to why considering the Novus Ordo to be a valid Mass is a schismatic act. 

 

You will be waiting a long time, because I never suggested that considering the Novus Ordo to be valid (I never said anything about validity) is a schismatic act. 

 

I do think that it is more likely that those enslaved to the Novus Ordo could be considered "schismatic" before those who cling to the traditions of the Church. 

 

Unless you believe that truth can change, and that we have a new Church as of Vatican II, then the modern Catholics are the ones who have separated themselves from the truth.  Traditional Catholics believe nothing different from what has been taught by the Church for the last 2000 years.  Novus Catholics believe anything- and everything to be the truth and the longer we are in this crisis, more lose their Faith.  The New Order, and its Mass are dangerous- they lead directly to apostasy and heresy.  Being involved in it, therefore, is an occasion of sin. 

 

 Go ahead- fulfill your Sunday obligation at the Novus Ordo.  It will do your soul good- just as an arsenic-laced hamburger will do your body good. 

[PsychoMonkey]

If you are hungry, and all that is available is a poison apple, do you eat the poison apple to satisfy your hunger?

[QuisUtDeus]

If you are hungry, and all that is available is a poison apple, do you eat the poison apple to satisfy your hunger?

If I'm going to die of starvation otherwise, probably.  Because I'll die anyhow, so I may as well remove the pain of death and die with a full belly.

 

But I think that metaphor is slightly broken in the context of this discussion.

 

If the NO is invalid, then it's a wax apple.

 

If the NO is valid yet sacreligious, then it's more like walking a tightrope 600 ft. above a pit of open flames to get to the apple.

 

If the NO is valid yet open to abuse, it's like getting a sour apple. Nutritious, but it makes your stomach turn to finish it.  This would be my call.

 

 

[PsychoMonkey]

If I'm going to die of starvation otherwise, probably.  Because I'll die anyhow, so I may as well remove the pain of death and die with a full belly.

But I think that metaphor is slightly broken in the context of this discussion.

If the NO is invalid, then it's a wax apple.

If the NO is valid yet sacreligious, then it's more like walking a tightrope 600 ft. above a pit of open flames to get to the apple.

If the NO is valid yet open to abuse, it's like getting a sour apple. Nutritious, but it makes your stomach turn to finish it.  This would be my call.

Unfortunately, I don't think that there will ever be an answer to whether not the NO is valid. My statement was made in regards to those who go to the NO because they feel it is their Sunday obligation and to do otherwise would be wrong.

The NO can be valid while still being a poison apple. The form of the consecration could be correct, but what fruits have come from the NO?

[Catholicmilkman]

No, it would seem that what you said is very clearly a more limited form of Donatism.

It is not as I said before for if you'd look up what exactly the Church says of Donatism you would realize She said nothing of the grace received from the Sacraments but talked strictly on validly. As well there are Church approved private revelations which say the same as I.

 

How does your reception of grace have anything to do with the priest's devotion?

How if the priest is not close to Christ do you except him to bring you close to Jesus.

 

Is your personal prayer affected because of the unseen, unknown thoughts of the priest?

Your personal prayer is yours but the holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a public prayer the official one of the Church so I fail to see how this has to do with the issue at hand.

 

 Is Christ only 75-85% there if the priest skipped his recitation of the Hours?

As I just said above that has to do with validity not efficiency of the Sacrament.

As you yourseld admitted, the Donatist heresy also involves those priests which have verged into heresy.

Donatists said much more: that a faithful Catholic priest who is not in state of grace could not affect a valid Sacrament.

 

I've never seen the Church teach that one's priest must have Faith.

Then why not go to the Orthodox who have real priests but without the Faith. 

 

I've certainly seen St. Augustine teach AGAINST that with his firm rebukes of the Donatists.

I doubt that so please show me where.

And let us not forget St. Francis, who, when asked by a brother what he would do with a priest who kept three mistresses, said, "I will go to that priest and kiss the consecrated hands which have held the Body and Blood of my Lord."

This has nothing to do with the theological virtue of Faith it is only a sin against the virtue of Charity. And as well I believe St. Francis was implying that no one should ever disgrace the priesthood which is a very grave sin. I ask you why, in his Introduction to a Devout Life, does St. Francis de Sales say that you can choose your own confessor (priest) though not your own bishop?

It sounds, then, that St. Francis was unconcerned with the fornicating priest's faith, which was clearly not on par with the strength you demand of your priests.

As I said above the sin had nothing to do the virtue of Faith. Did you know that it is a mortal sin to attend a Mass or receive any Sacrament from a known heretic even if he still officially be within the Church?

 

There is a confusion between intent and faith.  The faith of the priest does not matter.  As long as he INTENDS to confect a valid Sacrament, he can be, if I am not mistaken, a raving anti-Catholic who does not even believe.  Intention is different from faith.

No, you have a confusion between the validity and grace of a Sacrament. As well if he were "a raving anti-Catholic" why would you even think of going to him for the Sacraments?

[obscurus]

So bascially as long as the priest confects the Sacrament validly the context of the Mass means nothing? This is unprecedented in the history of the Church. We have every right to attend a Mass which is Catholic in all its parts otherwise we are not forced to attend a Mass which fulfills the minimum requirements of validity but is illicit.

[JLeigh]

It is, lest we forget, still following the Novus Ordo rubrics.  Is such a Mass valid?  (that's a yes or no; no one needs or presumably wants to hear another tirade about what sort of poisonous fruit or elemental toxin this Mass is, how it corrupts, apostasizes, Protestantizes, destroys the faith of the faithful, etc, etc ad nauseam)

I hardly see anymore why the validity of the NO matters. The point is moot. Just because it's valid doesn't mean one should attend it. A Black mass is valid -- does that mean if a Black mass is the only thing available in my area, I must attend it to "fulfill my Sunday Obligation"?

 

If validity is your main criteria for whether or not a specific mass is "ok", then you can comfortably attend a Black Mass, an SSPX Mass, an Indult mass, a Sedevacantist mass, and various NO masses.

[QuisUtDeus]

I hardly see anymore why the validity of the NO matters. The point is moot. Just because it's valid doesn't mean one should attend it. A Black mass is valid -- does that mean if a Black mass is the only thing available in my area, I must attend it to "fulfill my Sunday Obligation"?

 

If validity is your main criteria for whether or not a specific mass is "ok", then you can comfortably attend a Black Mass, an SSPX Mass, an Indult mass, a Sedevacantist mass, and various NO masses.

This comparison to the Black Mass is patently ridiculous. Do you even know what a Black Mass is like?

 

And not all Black Masses are valid.

[Daniel]

Sofia wrote:

 

You will be waiting a long time, because I never suggested that considering the Novus Ordo to be valid (I never said anything about validity) is a schismatic act. 

 

I do think that it is more likely that those enslaved to the Novus Ordo could be considered "schismatic" before those who cling to the traditions of the Church. 

 

Unless you believe that truth can change, and that we have a new Church as of Vatican II, then the modern Catholics are the ones who have separated themselves from the truth.  Traditional Catholics believe nothing different from what has been taught by the Church for the last 2000 years.  Novus Catholics believe anything- and everything to be the truth and the longer we are in this crisis, more lose their Faith.  The New Order, and its Mass are dangerous- they lead directly to apostasy and heresy.  Being involved in it, therefore, is an occasion of sin. 

 

 Go ahead- fulfill your Sunday obligation at the Novus Ordo.  It will do your soul good- just as an arsenic-laced hamburger will do your body good.

 

 

Brilliant Sofia.  Another big problem is that from one to the next they believe differently too. This is because from one Parish to the next they are being taught differently, sometimes by a Priest who does not believe in the Real Presence. I'm no taliking about minor doctrinal points, I'm talking about dogmatic theology. It's like each Parish is it's own Protestant sect with it's own self styled guru. Shocking.

 

If the things taught in novus ordo parishes are correct, then which parishes are we talking about? They are not all alike.

 

Hey, would a hamburger without the arsnic do my body any good?  Maybe you should have refered to one of my magnificent pasta sauces. Maybe next time.