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Author Topic: Words of the Consecration  (Read 443 times)
DeusFortitudoMea
Member

Posts: 21


« on: September 29, 2006, 10:35:AM »

As the title of this thread suggests, this topic is about the words of the Consecration as relates to the 'new' translation, in particular, that of the wine.  I'm trying to educate myself on this subject...there are three possibilities, and I'm curious as to what theological and canonical arguments can be presented for each one.

 

1. It's not a valid consecration, hence, neither the bread nor the wine transusbstantiates.

 

2. It is a valid consecration and the slight change to the words dont really matter (trust me, im NOT a proponent of this theory)

 

3. The consecration of the bread, which hasn't been changed to the point of dubious validity, remains a true transubstatiation, but the wine remains wine. The question here is, can you have one without the other? I've heard that some theologians say you can.

 

Any contribution to this subject would be appreciated since, as I said, I'm trying to sort things out in my head...

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Deus tu es fortitudo mea!

"So, if you're Lutheran, then when you die, you might say God goes sledding..."

Carpe Diem!

"A man came in with a little boy and gave the boy his hat.  The boy took the hat and hid it.  Then the man asked the congregation, "Where's my hat?" and the congregation replied "We don't know."  Then they collected money for a new hat.  In the end the little boy gave the man his hat back, but they didn't return the money."--a Jewish boy's synopsis of his first experience with a Catholic Mass.
Vincentius
Guest
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 11:03:AM »

If the Three Conditions necessary to validate a Sacrament are present, then the Sacrament can be said to be valid:  matter, form and intention.

But defects can occur.  Pope St. Pius V issued his Bull, De Defectibus, to ensure that nothing amiss goes in the celebration of the Mass.

Here are the rules on what could be defective and thus invalidate the Sacrament:

Quote
ON DEFECTS THAT MAY OCCUR IN THE CELEBRATION OF MASS

I
     1. The priest who is to celebrate Mass should take every precaution to make sure that none of the things required for celebrating the Sacrament of the Eucharist is missing.  A defect may occur with regard to the matter to be consecrated, with regard to the form to be observed and with regard to the consecrating minister.  There is no Sacrament if any of these is missing: the proper matter, the form, including the intention, and the priestly ordination of the celebrant.  If these things are present, the Sacrament is valid, no matter what else is lacking.  There are other defects, however, which may involve sin or scandal, even if they do not impair the validity of the Sacrament.

II - Defects of the matter
III - Defect of bread
IV - Defect of wine
V - Defects of the form
VI - Defects of the minister
VII - Defect of intention
VIII - Defects of the disposition of soul
IX - Defects of the disposition of body
X - Defects occurring in the celebration of the rite itself
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DeusFortitudoMea
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 12:00:PM »

yes, i've read de defectibus, though i cant remember, does it mention if you can have one without the other? i feel so silly genuflecting to the tabernacle on campus when im not sure if im genuflecting to anything or not...

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Deus tu es fortitudo mea!

"So, if you're Lutheran, then when you die, you might say God goes sledding..."

Carpe Diem!

"A man came in with a little boy and gave the boy his hat.  The boy took the hat and hid it.  Then the man asked the congregation, "Where's my hat?" and the congregation replied "We don't know."  Then they collected money for a new hat.  In the end the little boy gave the man his hat back, but they didn't return the money."--a Jewish boy's synopsis of his first experience with a Catholic Mass.
michaeorapronobis
Guest
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 07:20:PM »

No, there is no defect with the Form (the intention may be dubious - if a priest intends to perform a 'celebratory meal' then no consecration happens).

But although many people have claimed that the Novus Ordo is invalid, if we examine the new Words of Consecration we find no actual defect which invalidates the Mass.

 

According to St. Thomas, a Mass is rendered invalid:

i) if words are added or taken away so that the essential sense of what is being said at the Consecration is destroyed, and this includes removing words from what St. Thomas calls the "substance of the form" [S.T. III.60.8]

ii) if the words are changed so that the intention of what is being effected by the sacrament is changed, thus affecting the intention of the minister [S.T. III.64.8]

On the other hand, a Mass is not rendered invalid:

iii) if words are added or taken away that do not add to or take away from the essential sense of what is being done [S.T. III.60.8 ad 2]

The Consecration of the bread is valid, even though the words 'quod pro vobis tradetur' ('which will be given up for you') have been added. St. Thomas says that words can be added to the form of Consecration as long as the words added do not alter the essential sense of the form [S.T. III.60.8 ad 2]. Furthermore, in the Byzantine and Armenian Rites, similar words are placed after the words 'this is my Body'

 

The Consecration of the wine, however, seems to have some problems. The words 'mysterium fidei' (the mystery of faith) have been removed from the Consecration. While this might seem to invalidate the Mass, the Eastern Rites do not contain the words 'the mystery of faith' either, and they are valid.

 

However, a much more serious case arises in the words "pro multis" ('for many') being translated as "for all" in all but three vernacular translations of the Novus Ordo (French, Polish and Chinese all say 'for many' or 'for the multitude'). But if we examine gramatically the Words of Consecration, we find that it does not in fact invalidate the Consecration.

 

Main Clause

Appositive Phrases

Subordinate Clause

Words of Consecration

"This is the chalice of My Blood"

"of the new and eternal testament" 
"the mystery of faith"

"which will be shed for you, and for many, for the forgiveness of sins"

Grammatical Purpose of the Words

To state what is on the altar; in this case it is Christ's Blood

To help remove all doubt whose Blood is on the altar

To show the power of the Blood 
[S.T. III.78.3]

What these words say about the Blood

What Blood is shed

What Blood is shed

Why the Blood is shed

Does a change in these words change the meaning of the words of the main clause?

Yes, but only if the change makes it plain that the Blood is not Christ's Blood

Yes, but only if the change makes it plain that the Blood is not Christ's Blood

No, because a change in something's purpose why doesn't necessarily change what the thing is

Example of a change in the words that changes the meaning of the words of the main clause

"This is not the chalice of my Blood"

Adding these words: 
"the blood of Fr. Joe Smith" 
OR 
"but not the Blood of Christ"

 

Example of a change in the words that DOES NOT change the meaning of the words of the main clause

"This is the cup of my Blood"

Adding these words: 
"also known as the Precious Blood" 
OR 
"shed upon Calvary"

"which will be shed for you, and for all men, for the forgiveness of sins

The Form of a Sacrament is, strictly speaking, what it is, not why it is. A change in something's why doesn't change what it is. As St. Thomas says "the purpose [why] is not part of the substance of the act [what]" [S.T. I-II.7.4 ad 2]. Hence, although the subordinate clause "which will be shed for you and for many..." is included in the form of the sacrament to comprise the "integrity of the expression," it is by definition not truly part of the form, and furthermore it is metaphysically impossible that a change to the purpose of a thing (why the thing exists) will automatically change the form of the thing (what the thing is), unless a contrary intention is indicated by the change of the purpose, and we have already shown this not to be the case.

 

Thus, translating "pro multis" as "for all" does not invalidate the Mass, but it is a grave error. We know from the Holy Gospels according to Sts. Matthew (26:27-28) and Mark (14:23-24) that Jesus said that His Blood would be shed "for many". Now either the Gospels are wrong and the New Mass is right, or the Gospels are right and the New Mass is wrong. The Church has declared the Bible free from error, so we know that Jesus said "for many" at the Last Supper.

Chart showing the words of Jesus according to the Gospels and according to the New Mass
 

According to 
the Gospel of St. Matthew

According to 
the Gospel of St. Mark

According to 
the New Mass

The Words of Jesus

And taking the chalice, He gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: "Drink ye all of this. For this is My Blood of the new testament, 

which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins."

And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, He gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And He said to them: "This is My Blood of the new testament, 
which shall be shed for many."

He gave the cup to His Disciples and said: 
"This is the cup of My Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. 
It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven."

Did Jesus really say these words?

Yes.

Yes.

No

 

So every time a priest celebrates the New Mass he is telling lie, because he is claiming that Jesus said something that He didn't say. St. Thomas teaches that  if anything false is signified by outward worship, this worship will be pernicious [S.T. II-II.93.1]. God has condemned telling lies in sacred matters: "Thou shalt not live: because thou best spoken a lie in the name of the Lord" (Zacharias 13:3).

 

Therefore, the Words of Consecration in the Novus Ordo are valid, but illicit. You should try to attend the Traditional Mass only, as it is free from all error.

 

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DeusFortitudoMea
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2006, 10:03:PM »

ah, but the new words of the consecration do indeed change the very nature and meaning of the original: for many and for all, not the same thing...Christ died for all, but the merits of His sacrifice can only be applied to those who are members of His Church--many, not all...

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Deus tu es fortitudo mea!

"So, if you're Lutheran, then when you die, you might say God goes sledding..."

Carpe Diem!

"A man came in with a little boy and gave the boy his hat.  The boy took the hat and hid it.  Then the man asked the congregation, "Where's my hat?" and the congregation replied "We don't know."  Then they collected money for a new hat.  In the end the little boy gave the man his hat back, but they didn't return the money."--a Jewish boy's synopsis of his first experience with a Catholic Mass.


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