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Author Topic: Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church  (Read 6909 times)
obscurus
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« on: October 10, 2006, 08:05:PM »

The sources seem to be more credible now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2397919-3,00.html

Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church


THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome.

Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult — or permission — for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.

Use of the Tridentine Mass, parts of which date from the time of St Gregory in the 6th century and which takes its name from the 16th-century Council of Trent, was restricted by most bishops after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).

This led to the introduction of the new Mass in the vernacular to make it more accessible to contemporary audiences. By bringing back Mass in Latin, Pope Benedict is signalling that his sympathies lie with conservatives in the Catholic Church.

One of the most celebrated rebels against its suppression was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 over this and other reforms. He was excommunicated after he consecrated four bishops, one of them British, without permission from the Pope.

Some Lefebvrists, including those in Brazil, have already been readmitted. An indult permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass could help to bring remaining Lefebvrists and many other traditional Catholics back to the fold.

The priests of England and Wales are among those sometimes given permission to celebrate the Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Tridentine Masses are said regularly at the Oratory and St James’s Spanish Place in London, but are harder to find outside the capital.

The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

Catholic bloggers have been anticipating the indult for months. The Cornell Society blog says that Father Martin Edwards, a London priest, was told by Cardinal Joseph Zen, of Hong Kong, that the indult had been signed. Cardinal Zen is alleged to have had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.

“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.”

The 1962 Missal issued by Pope John XXIII was the last of several revisions of the 1570 Missal of Pius V. In a lecture in 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger said that it would be “fatal” for the Missal to be “placed in a deep-freeze, left like a national park, a park protected for the sake of a certain kind of people, for whom one leaves available these relics of the past”.

Daphne McLeod, chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, a UK umbrella group that campaigns for the restoration of traditional orthodoxy, said: “A lot of young priests are teaching themselves the Tridentine Mass because it is so beautiful and has prayers that go back to the Early Church.”

TRADITIONAL SERVICE

  • The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation

  • In 1570, Pope St Pius V said that priests could use the Tridentine rite forever, “without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty”

  • Since the Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass has been almost entirely superseded by the Mass of Pope Paul VI

  • Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who took the lead in opposing the reforms, continued to celebrate the old Mass at his seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, and formed a dissident group. He was excommunicated in 1988

  • The advantages of the Mass, according to the faithful, are in its uniformity and the fact that movements and gestures are prescribed, so that there is no room for “personalisation”
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    JLeigh
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    « Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 08:14:PM »

    Quote
    The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

     

    I'm not sure how this is a change. The bishops can still forbid it, which seems to defeat the whole purpose of a universal Indult.

     

     

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    Spooky7272
    Guest
    « Reply #2 on: October 10, 2006, 08:19:PM »

    Well, I guess instead of having to get permission to say it, they now have to put it in writing that they can't.

    Just  speculation but which Bishops do you think will go to the extra trouble  of outright forbidding it? I'm thinking Mahony and Brown over in La La  Land; the Bishop that silenced Fr Altier (St Paul/Minneapolis?)

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    jovan66102
    La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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    « Reply #3 on: October 10, 2006, 08:21:PM »

    Quote from: JLeigh

    Quote
    The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

     

    I'm not sure how this is a change. The bishops can still forbid it, which seems to defeat the whole purpose of a universal Indult.

     

     

     
    It's the difference between "opt in" and "opt out". Now, a Bishop, simply by inaction, can prevent the TLM in his diocese. If the Universal Indult is indeed issued (and I'm beginning to believe it will be! See this link.) a Bishop will have to put himself on record as opposing it. We can hope that many Bishops will be reluctant to publicly oppose our Holy Father's wishes
    Logged

    Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

    Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!

    Deum timete, regem honorificate.
    Picard
    Guest
    « Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 08:45:PM »

    The day this is made official shall be glorious.

     

     

    <------ thats gonna be the reaction of all of those schismatic USCCB bishops here in the US

     

    Logged


    Vincentius
    Guest
    « Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 08:50:PM »

    Quote
    Even Cardinal Mahony allows the offering of Tridentine Masses in Los Angeles...

    That's right.  But you'd need a map and a helicopter to get there.   Cdl. Mahony chose 4 places (plus one for that extra 5th Sunday a month might have) that were spread across L.A.'s 600 sq mile area.  You got lucky if you lived near the chapel where this Sunday's Mass is held but next Sunday you'd have to drive a hour or more for that Mass.  

    But L.A. offers many options:  the Armenian, Ruthenian, Maronite, Coptic, Byzantine, etc., all of which are in communion with the pope.  There's also the SSPX, CMRI, and a host of  Indies.

    I lived in L.A. for 28 years, but the smog burned my lungs but that's not the main reason we fled -- it just wasn't the place to raise children.
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    QuisUtDeus
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    « Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 08:56:PM »

    I estimate 20% or greater of US dioceses will block it.

     

    Maybe I'm a cynic (well, actually I am a cynic), but they're not going to allow this.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but we may be on the brink of open warfare here.  Yet, maybe that's what should happen.

     

    There are logistic problems as well: where are they going to celebrate it?  Half the new churches are theater-in-the-round, and the old ones have the NO altar bolted to the floor.

     

    Kinda hard to say Mass with a table in the way.  The indult churches I have been to have a moveable NO altar that is shifted during the TLM.  I don't think the bishops are going to take kindly to ripping out the NO altars and putting them on wheels in all their churches.

     

    And still, I'll believe it when I see it.  The limbo thing was supposed to happen this week, and it's been postponed a year according to articles.  I want to believe it will happen, but too many screwy things have happened in the past for me to get my hopes up.

     

    I'll certainly pray it does happen.

     

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    jovan66102
    La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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    « Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 09:17:PM »

    Quote from: QuisUtDeus

     

     

    Kinda hard to say Mass with a table in the way.  The indult churches I have been to have a moveable NO altar that is shifted during the TLM.  I don't think the bishops are going to take kindly to ripping out the NO altars and putting them on wheels in all their churches.

     

     
    My indult just ignores the NO Table. A bit inconvenient walking around it, but what the hey! I went to a Nuptial Mass recently in an NO Church where the indult is not regularly celebrated and the Pastor approved  temporarily removing the Table!
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    Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

    Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!

    Deum timete, regem honorificate.
    Marty
    Guest
    « Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 09:18:PM »

    Quote
    Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

    Did the latin Mass divide the Church???

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    obscurus
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    « Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 09:20:PM »

    Quote from: Marty

    Quote
    Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

    Did the latin Mass divide the Church???

    If anything the "Latin Mass" greatly united the Church in the West.

    Logged
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