Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[Daniel]

Are the Priests who are going to offer these Masses going to be reordained to offer sacrifice? And for that matter to absolve sins?

[michaeorapronobis]

In 1995, Alfons Cardinal Stickler declared that the Pope cannot forbid a Mass which has not only been used for centuries, but has been the Mass of thousands of saints and faithful. He pointed out that a nine-cardinal Papal commission appointed by JPII came to the conclusion that no bishop may forbid a priest from saying the Tridentine Mass.

 

Why can't the Pope just say that no-one can forbid the Traditional Mass? Why does he leave it that bishops can forbid it?

 

Why would the bishops want to forbid it? Why do they hate it so much anyway?

[Kenny]

Yes, I believe the Ecclesia Dei Commission pronounced that no bishop may forbid the celebration of the traditional Mass. Whence this illicit option?

[QuisUtDeus]

I had thought they only decided that Paul VI never intended to abrogate it with the promulgation of a new Missal.  That's different than saying a bishop couldn't suppress it in his diocese.

 

Are you guys sure you aren't reading more into it?  You could be right, I just don't remember the conclusion the same as you.  It was a while ago - I might be remembering wrong.

 

ADDENDUM:

 

OK, I looked it up and you guys remember it correctly.  But there's two problems.  1) Their decision was informative to the Pope and not binding unless the Pope made it so (and obviously he didn't), and, 2) Cdl. Stickler later backtracked a bit and gave a nod to the bishops' authority - though I can't find a transcript of that part, just a reference to it in Catholic Family News.

 

Personally I think Quo Primum is enough, but that's a different topic of debate.

 

If the bishops irritate Pope Benedict enough, he may just tell them to get stuffed and promulgate it without allowing them to deny it.  I don't think Pope Benedict is going to turn out to be the kind of Pope to take marching orders from his bishops either for or against the Tridentine Mass.  Or anything else for that matter.

[Kenny]

 1) Their decision was informative to the Pope and not binding unless the Pope made it so (and obviously he didn't)

My understanding is that EDC reaffirmed what was true all along. In other words, it was not just trivia for the Holy Father, but in fact a pronouncement that echoes Quo Primum where it states that no one may forbid the celebration of the Mass of St Pius V.

2) Cdl. Stickler later backtracked a bit and gave a nod to the bishops' authority - though I can't find a transcript of that part, just a reference to it in Catholic Family News.

It would be interesting to see a transcript or something, but I'm not sure if it truly bears any pertinence to the matter at hand. They need to remember EDC's pronouncement and recognise it.

[Paul]

Are the Priests who are going to offer these Masses going to be reordained to offer sacrifice? And for that matter to absolve sins?

No, because the new rite of ordination, since it comes from the Church, is valid.

[Picard]

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but we may be on the brink of open warfare here.  Yet, maybe that's what should happen.

 

Damn right! Fight the man! Anyways I hope it dose happen because the liberals would loose. It would be hilarious to see an "American Catholic Church" formed by these heretic schismatic liberals.

[Mornac]

Wednesday, October 11, 2006

Traditional Mass to be Freed? Italian media abuzz

This morning, Italy woke up to lot of talk about the possibility that the Traditional Rite of the Mass will be freed. Andrea Tornielli says that a Motu Proprio is ready, lacking "only" the Pope's signature.

Updates soon.

_______
Update (1333 GMT) NewCatholic

The main excerpts of the Tornielli article in today's Il Giornale:

The Latin Mass Returns - Pope's decree soon

Andrea Tornielli

Rome

The text is ready, lacking only the signature of the Pope. Benedict XVI could publish a "Motu proprio" even before the end of 2006, with which the use of the pre-Conciliar Missal is liberalized, thus allowing groups of faithful to ask for the celebration of the old Mass without receiving negative answers, often unmotivated, from the singular bishops. The document shall "rehabilitate" the Mass said of Saint Pius V, celebrated in the Latin Catholic Church up to 1969 and never declared abrogated, defining it as an "extraordinary" universal rite, alongside the ordinary Roman Rite, which is the post-Conciliar one.

...


After having consulted the cardinals of the Roman Curia and having posed the question even to the consistory of past February, affirming that the theology of the Tridentine Mass cannot be defined as "reductive", Benedict XVI has charged Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, Prefect of Clergy and president of the Ecclesia Dei Commission of proceding [with the text]. A first draft of the text was thus written, which the Pope then sent to the Congregation for Divine Worship. Here the road of the decree, due to some internal resistance at the Dicastery, was made more difficult: a minimal number of solicitating faithful was considered, initially set at 100, then lowered to 30, and the references to liturgical abuses were removed from the draft. The text was thus returned to the Pontiff and to Ecclesia Dei. Other than Castrillón, Cardinal Julián herranz, president of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative texts, was also involved in the crafting of the text.

The "Motu proprio" for the liberalization of the new [sic] Missal, a measure which finds notable resistance inside and outside the Roman Curia, should also ease the gathering into full communion with the Lefebvrists of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, who have always fought for it. Obviously, if the Pope signs it, as he seems bent on doing, it will not mean that the simple faithful will find the Mass celebrated in the old way the very next day. It will be necessary to harmonise the desires of the Traditionalist faithful with those of the other parishioners.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

[Credo]

http://www.americancatholicchurch.com/ Hahaha

 

[Vincentius]

Pope Paul VI could have abrogated the TLM if he wanted to.  A pope has the power to loose the law what another pope bound in promulgating that law:  the principle that holds this is that "equals have no power over each other" (par in parem potestatem no habet).  Father Dulac made this clear in a statement:  

If a Pope has the power to lose what another pope by the same power has bound, then he should use this right only for the gravest possible reason (my emphasis):  reasons which would have prompted his predecessor to revoke his own law.  Otherwise, the essence of supreme authority is itself eroded by successive contradictory commands.

If Pope St. Pius V had reason to revoke Quo Primum for any reason, then Paul VI could and would have reason to do so.   Therefore it is for this reason that Quo Primum will remain a law unto perpetuity.

As for the issue of granting universal right to every priest to celebrate the TLM I would not be surprised that less than 10 percent of the Novus Ordo priests (speaking of those priests inured in the NOM the past 25 to 30 years, and not including the newly ordained five years or less) would bother to take advantage of this right.  It would mean retraining in a totally different environment.  And who would take charge of taking this task to train these priests who have been comfortable saying the NOM -- out go the adlibs, the wisecracks to elicit laughter and giggles from the congregation, no more adding or taking away some prayers, but to plunge themselves into some very serious business and for what? as they will be celebrating the TLM only once a week as the bishop will "tolerate."   I know of two priests who "taught" themselves to say the TLM.   Both prayed the Canon aloud, and bungled most of the rubrics.   A third priest said the TLM facing the people in a free standing altar, and horrors, even suggested to bring on an altarboy girl.  The congregation groaned aloud and voiced an emphatic "NO WAY!"  

The priests incardinated in dioceses where the bishop forbids the TLM (which make up at least 80%) will think twice before attempting to take advantage of the universal right.   That's a given.

And the "faithful":   how many of these will adapt to this "new" rite?  There are numerous factors that will turn them away, Latin being the main one.  Boredom will be the second factor.  They have been used to being entertained and all of sudden the solemn aura permeating in the sactuary will be somewhat shocking.   [EDIT TO ADD:  flipflops, tanktops, shorts, revealing cleavages, etc.  Unthinkable at the TLM, but wait and see, this will still be the norm.  The ushers will still let them in]    The altar will have to be moved away from the center and relocated to where it used to be.  These are just a few reasons that have to be considered if a priest decides he will exercise his right to say the TLM.  And then again, the NOM will still be the Rite that will remain and the TLM perhaps once every two Sundays, and nobody will show up, except a few oldtimers and the curious.  But it may be a good start and in time, God willing, the TLM will gain more adherents.  A good, if not the best, for the restoration to get a new start.  In the next 40 years, the NOM will be in the minority, Deo volente.  Oremus.