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Author Topic: Would B16 Write his own Tridentine Missal?  (Read 1010 times)
Marty
Guest
« on: October 25, 2006, 12:37:AM »

Should we be expecting such a thing after/if the Indult is announced?

Would that mean that if a Priest wishes to say the NO Mass, he would have to get permission from his Bishop? Imagine it!!! An indult to say a NO Mass! I love it!

Any thoughts?

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QuisUtDeus
Guest
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 04:37:AM »

I doubt he would promulgate his own.  I think he will just stick with the 1962 Missal.

 

You know, it would be poetic justice if they had to have permission from Rome to say the NO, but that will happen when pigs fly.  At least I don't expect to see it my lifetime.

 

I'll owe God an infinity of thanksgiving novenas if the Universal Indult comes through.  I never expected to see that in my lifetime either.

 

Something to tell the grandkids about.

 

"Back when I was a boy, the Mass that you know was nowhere to be found.  You had to drive over an hour and beg a bishop just to go to Mass that didn't have electric guitars."

 

I hope I'm not getting my hopes up, but I can't help it.

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Vincentius
Guest
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 07:04:AM »

Marty, the Catholic world turned upside down in 1962 and has remained so to this day.  The NOM is supposed to be the indult.
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Vincentius
Guest
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2006, 03:02:PM »

 
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Why would one explicitly seek permission to banalize the Mass (Pope Benedict did indeed label it, rather famously, a "banal, on the spot production")? Why not just go with the tried and true Holy Sacrifice whose canon dates to the 6th century?

Perhaps because to the modernist mind the sublime is inscrutable.   The modernist thinks in terms of the banal, unable to transcend what is aesthetic and sacrosanct.

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The better solution would seem to involve several steps:

1. The Holy Father would need to crack down, particularly in the United States. Slowly "Tridentinize" the Novus Ordo, first by excising that which pertains to the NO; no more altar girls, no laypeople in the sanctuary at all save the altar servers, no lay readers, no laypeople dispensing Holy Communion (in short, relegate the laity to the pews, where they belong), no more table, no more reception in the hand, no more standing, no more "Gather Together" or "Breaking Bread" hymnals, no more "Gather Us In" songs.

That's the devout wish of every trad.  It's impractical because the US hierarchy under the USCCB will oppose any nuanced overture towards  "tridentinizing" the NOM.  The conservative bishops in the USCCB have practically no say in church matters and/or are overruled if they so much as sided with the Holy Father.

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2. The next is active transformation; a series of liturgical catechetical talks at all Masses for weeks, explaining, for instance, why the Mass is the Sacrifice, why the priest makes 52 signs of the cross and why they are made in groups of 2, 3, and 5, why we genuflect, why we kneel (hey, people need to know, and by the looks of those standing during the Consecration, they must not), why the Mystery of Faith we refer to belongs in the Consecration and should not be rendered "Christ will come again" when Christ just has come again, the restoration of the high altar, the correct translation into the vernacular of anything that remains in the vernacular, the restoration of the tabernacle on the altar, the restoration of the altar rail, the training of the choir in polyphony and chant.

This should have been the proper method when introducing the NOM at the get-go.  However, sanctification was never in their minds, never written in their agenda.  Instead the sanctimonious (feigned piety) is what took hold of the way the NOM was going to be.

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3. Add Latin. First the propers; the Kyrie (Greek, actually), the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, the Credo, the Confiteor (and this, as the other prayers, must be restored to its original form, with all the saints mentioned, etc.), the Pater.  Eucharistic prayers numbered 2-13 (or is it 15?) might do well to be left aside for now.  There was nothing wrong with St. Gregory's Canon.

4. Give it a few months, then restore the Canon to Latin, as well as the old calendar with all its feasts, Ember days, fasts, etc.  

Eventually, dispense with the charade, bring back all the Traditional prayers, and restore the Missal of 1962. The Tridentine Mass.  Perhaps the only development which might be advisable would be to coordinate the schola's chanting with the priest's prayers so as to time them a bit better.  That and maybe making some of the previously inaudible prayers audible, so as not to completely disenchant a laity far too used to "being involved."

In 1965 when the first experiments were being tested, the NOM as it was then, is unrecognizable to the NOM in the vernacular of today.  Although most of the original Latin prayers of the TLM were retained, e.g. "Dominus vobuscum," "Et cum spiritu tuo," "The Credo," "The Orate Fratres" etc., the English translation (side by side with the Latin) suffered much.  The typical edition of the 1970 Missal of Paul VI was no longer what was proposed in 1965, nor did it resemble it.  

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By this point, the sniveling modernist "liturgy directors" will have fled to the nearest Evangelical Church, the conservatives will rejoice to see that their suffering through sacrilegious Masses need not be so anymore, the traditionalists will rejoice about no longer needing to drive 3 hours to get to Mass on Sundays, the priests and bishops who advocate female ordination, promote sodomy, contraception, and disrespect to the Blessed Sacrament probably will have broken off into schism, and we'll have a smaller, more faithful Church prepared to reel in the 50% of wandering, aimless, apostasized folk who dribbled out from 1965 to 2002 after seeing too many of their priests no longer take the Faith seriously.

But I'll bet the ranch that these sniveling modernists will still be there and will still call themselves The American Catholic Church.  Perhaps they might even patent or copyright the term "Catholic" so nobody else can use it, as that sniveling ex-nun know-it-all vice-chancellor in Milwaukee would like to have it her way.

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At least, that's a plan.

We'll have to bombard heaven with prayers and sacrifices.  I don't hope to see this happening in my lifetime, though.
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Marty
Guest
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2006, 05:47:PM »

Quote from: Vincentius
Marty, the Catholic world turned upside down in 1962 and has remained so to this day.  The NOM is supposed to be the indult.

Yeah? Well I didn't know that!! So, by rights, a priest or a 'community' of people wanting the NO has to get permission from the Bishop to say it! That really is upside down!

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Ancilla_Indigna
Guest
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2006, 07:56:PM »

JHS

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why the Mystery of Faith we refer to belongs in the Consecration and should not be rendered "Christ will come again" when Christ just has come again



This ALWAYS gave me the creeps, even when I was a material heretic, who never even heard of the Tridentine Mass.  I never understood why/how this got in the new mass.  It still doesn't make any sense to dismiss it as a mere oversight.
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PeteC
Member

Posts: 1,043


« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2006, 05:11:AM »

Quote from: Vincentius
In 1965 when the first experiments were being tested, the NOM as it was then, is unrecognizable to the NOM in the vernacular of today.  Although most of the original Latin prayers of the TLM were retained, e.g. "Dominus vobuscum," "Et cum spiritu tuo," "The Credo," "The Orate Fratres" etc., the English translation (side by side with the Latin) suffered much.  The typical edition of the 1970 Missal of Paul VI was no longer what was proposed in 1965, nor did it resemble it.  

The 1965 missal was not the NO Missal. It was the TLM minus the Last Gospel and Judica Me with rubrical changes and a simplified Ritus Servandus. As well as a provision for the vernacular with regard to the certain parts of the Ordinary  (Methinks it would have been better to leave those parts of the Ordinary in Latin and translate the Propers). Vernacular in the liturgy took off with Pius XII. The 1965 missal was but a further elaboration of the 1962 missal with regard to certain liturgical principles advanced earlier which spread rapidly in the 50's.


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QuisUtDeus
Guest
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 10:47:AM »

Quote from: Ancilla_Indigna
JHS

Quote
why the Mystery of Faith we refer to belongs in the Consecration and should not be rendered "Christ will come again" when Christ just has come again



This ALWAYS gave me the creeps, even when I was a material heretic, who never even heard of the Tridentine Mass. I never understood why/how this got in the new mass. It still doesn't make any sense to dismiss it as a mere oversight.

The NO Missal has lots of goofy stuff in it, and most of it is there on purpose.  It's no different than using the table altar instead of a wall altar - it's done for a reason, and that reason is ecumenism (and secondarily opening loopholes for modernism).

 

This one just may be sloppy liturgy.  The NO has a lot of sloppy things in it, especially the Sign of Peace which completely disturbs anyone who has his mind and heart lifted to the Divine.  If that really needed to be added, it could have been done just after the Homily when the priest is retiring from the pulpit so as not to disturb the flow of the liturgy, etc.

 

 

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bupanishad2012
Guest
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 10:51:AM »

I ran like hell from my awful Baptist beginnings toward Catholicism for years, only to find that "Catholicism" had been Protestanized!  That threw me off balance ever since.  Trads!  Hold the line!

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Jarrod_D
Member

Posts: 786


« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 12:15:PM »

I would hope Benedict XVI would publish his own tridentine style missal ... for 2 reasons

 

1) Update on the Saints. Tomorrow is like the unofficial Padre Pio saint say in the tridentine parishes (being all saints day) ... would be nice to see some of the newer saints on the calender.

 

2) Showing that the Tridentine rite is not dead; that we are not just holding on to 1962, that this way of celebrating mass is alive and well.

 

Jarrod

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