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Author Topic: The Rape of Europe (Paul Belien)  (Read 4936 times)
KG
Member

Posts: 208



« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2006, 01:06:PM »

In their different ways, HMiS and GrumpyTroll both touch on the same interesting aspect of this.

 

The vulnerability of the west is its decadence.

 

It's gotten so bad that even those that worked so tirelessly to achieve the current decadence can now smell the stench and are uneasy about it. Hence all the (aimless and fruitless) spiritual seeking on the left and the start of them even voicing a desire to somehow "regulate" morals.

 

And it's resulting in Islam winning converts among those who have little to no real religious formation in the west (the majority) who at the same time are tired of the moral decay. For instance we see western women converting because they feel Islam cares enough about them to not want them to be whores. As an example, muslims are finding that their prosletyzing is remarkably effective among the latino community here in the US.

 

At the same time, the secular crowd values nothing higher than their own life -- not even their supposed "freedom" to be slaves to their animal nature. So they are not at all adverse to converting simply to save their skin -- they have no soul to protect. A stark illustration of this would be discussions at conservative political sites about the forced conversions of the fox journalists. Virtually no one saw any moral issue in "saying" you had converted to save your skin -- these were "conservatives" but clearly secular. The secular left is already opening aligning with Islam in a misguided attempt to save its skin, and the secular right actually is stupid enough to think it can lie to Islam about converting to save its skin.

 

So yep, the moral decay will be the entry point. I just differ in that my studies indicate that it's just another of the outright lies that you can lay at the feet of the "victor writing history" that Islam (which afterall is a Catholic heresy) was ever benevolent, even in the 8th century.

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And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)
alice
Guest
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2006, 01:44:PM »

RoyalCello....you will forgive me but you are an odd fellow...why do you live in the past? All of your arguments pertain to centuries past....the present is all there is....Live in the "Now"....everything else is just your thoughts/imagination running rampant....you are creating more stress for yourself over some phantom situation that only exists in your mind....

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Mernoc
Guest
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2006, 03:50:PM »

Getting back to the present, I have mixed with both Muslims and what would be considered normal Western Europeans with all the values which that entails and I can confidently tell you that I found the Muslims with all their errors to be more in line with Christian moral teaching than my fellow Europeans.

Of course I will support neither as they are both wrong.

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Sophia
Guest
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2006, 05:00:PM »

Quote from: alice

not to mention...how do you take "sides" on a round planet?

 

Cute.

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Paul
Member

Posts: 2,592


« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2006, 06:42:PM »

Quote from: alice
RoyalCello....you will forgive me but you are an odd fellow...why do you live in the past? All of your arguments pertain to centuries past....the present is all there is....Live in the "Now"....everything else is just your thoughts/imagination running rampant....you are creating more stress for yourself over some phantom situation that only exists in your mind....

While this may not apply to RoyalCello, since he's not Catholic, Catholics believe God does not change and therefore truth does not change. God chose to become man 2000 years ago for a reason, and it's not our place to update Jesus for modern society. Europe of the past was a Christian society, founded on the kingship of Christ and with church and state operating together while still in their proper spheres, and with sin treated as sin and heresy as heresy. It wasn't perfect - perfect hasn't existed since the Fall - but it was a lot better than the mess we're in today.
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alice
Guest
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2006, 07:27:PM »

 

Quote
While this may not apply to RoyalCello, since he's not Catholic, Catholics believe God does not change and therefore truth does not change. God chose to become man 2000 years ago for a reason, and it's not our place to update Jesus for modern society. Europe of the past was a Christian society, founded on the kingship of Christ and with church and state operating together while still in their proper spheres, and with sin treated as sin and heresy as heresy. It wasn't perfect - perfect hasn't existed since the Fall - but it was a lot better than the mess we're in today.

 

I'm not suggesting that God changes...I'm suggesting people do...Our understanding of God changes as we begin to obtain more and more knowledge of ourselves, others, and the universe we live in. There was a time when the "Western world/Europe" was scared of the number zero...they thought it was from the "devil" when it was first introduced...Today in 2006 the Western world is trying to define Zero Point Gravity....People change....not God.

 

I think I best  stick to the science section of this forum....

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Paul
Member

Posts: 2,592


« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2006, 08:19:PM »

Quote from: alice

I'm not suggesting that God changes...I'm suggesting people do...Our understanding of God changes as we begin to obtain more and more knowledge of ourselves, others, and the universe we live in.


And that knowledge has led us to replace God with man - the fruit in the garden all over again. God is who He is - we need to change to conform with what He revealed to us through the prophets, the Law, and finally through His Son and the Apostles, interpreted for us by the Church. People centuries ago understood their place and God's place in the universe - modern man thinks he is God.


Quote from: alice
There was a time when the "Western world/Europe" was scared of the number zero...they thought it was from the "devil" when it was first introduced...Today in 2006 the Western world is trying to define Zero Point Gravity....People change....not God.

I think I best  stick to the science section of this forum....


Proof of this? Even if this is true, they were wrong, but at least they were wrong for religious reasons. To them, as it traditionally has been for the Church, change is not something to take lightly. But now everything has to be "new and improved" - new soap, new cars, new houses, new rosary, new Mass. We are to adapt ourselves to God, not God to us.


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Sophia
Guest
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2006, 08:28:PM »

Quote from: alice
 

 

I'm not suggesting that God changes...I'm suggesting people do...

 

Truth does not change.

 

Quote
Our understanding of God changes as we begin to obtain more and more knowledge of ourselves, others, and the universe we live in.

 

What was true, however, cannot change.   Fashions, speech, cultures, change.  Basic human nature from which these arise does not change.  If something was objectively true 3000 years ago, it is true for eternity, past and present.  The Bible reminds us that there is nothing new under the sun...it has all been done before.  Even the progressive ideas of today have their echos in the past.

 

You need look no further than the Pre-Socratics to find every so-called "progressive," "enlightened," modern philosophy explained.  Plato, and then Aristotle destroyed these philosophies and gave us something better.  It is not progress to reject these utterly in favor of the Pre-Socratics.  It represents a regress.  Our modern society is regressive.  Our modern philosophies are regressive.  They became so with the Protestant Revolution.  All of our modern errors in the Western world can be traced back to this time.  Aristotle, who represented the crown of secular human thought, was rightly embraced by the Church, and the Church has used his system of logic married to Faith, to prove where he went wrong as well as improve upon our understanding of reality.  Since we are finite creatures, we need to rely on the progress of the past- not throw it out in favor of a new synthesis.   Yet moderns have utterly rejected this progress in favor of their Godless, secular society- the city of Man, which cannot rival the city of God which Christ has prepared for us in heaven.  We were not created for this world.  There will be no utopia in this life.  Every attempt at utopia has failed miserably.  The New World Order is nothing more than a New Tower of Babel.  God will one day destroy it, just as he destroyed the original. 

 

Quote
There was a time when the "Western world/Europe" was scared of the number zero...they thought it was from the "devil" when it was first introduced...

 

This sounds like the myth of the flat earth people from the time of Columbus.  No one but the most uneducated peasants would have thought this.  

 

Quote
....People change....not God.

 

At last something we can agree upon!  (But human nature does not change.)

 

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HailGilbert
Member

Posts: 2,686



« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2006, 10:01:PM »

Quote from: Paul


Quote from: alice
There was a time when the "Western world/Europe" was scared of the number zero...they thought it was from the "devil" when it was first introduced...Today in 2006 the Western world is trying to define Zero Point Gravity....People change....not God.

I think I best  stick to the science section of this forum....


Proof of this? Even if this is true, they were wrong, but at least they were wrong for religious reasons. To them, as it traditionally has been for the Church, change is not something to take lightly. But now everything has to be "new and improved" - new soap, new cars, new houses, new rosary, new Mass. We are to adapt ourselves to God, not God to us.


[/QUOTE]

There was a book written in 2000 by Charles Seife called Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea, published by Penguin. Here is the link to it on Amazon.

Amazon's review of the book asks in part:

Quote
"Why did the Church reject the use of zero? How did mystics of all stripes get bent out of shape over it? Is it true that science as we know it depends on this mysterious round digit?"


A spotlight review by a reader said:

Quote
"It may well be the most potent force in the universe. The Greeks were scared to death of it. Aristotle wouldn't permit it (and the Catholic Church's vice-grip on Aristotelianism held Western science and mathematics back for centuries). But this force does not discriminate; it delights in tripping up secular science as well."

A more recent reader review writes:

Quote
"The story goes on to cover the philosophical struggles between various western factions as the Greeks really did not like the concept of nothing and how that translated eventually to the Catholic church's freezing of culture in the dark ages."

Here, though, is a defense of the Church and Aristotle in a scathing review of the book from - of all people - a practicing WICCAN!

Quote
"Most of this book is about the history of the number zero and how it wound up in European number systems, which originally lacked it. The writer shows how zero gradually appeared in numeral systems in Asia and the Middle East, then began to crop up in European numbers when Mediterranean merchants in the Middle Ages found it to be useful. He shows how the important advancements of science and calculus in Europe in the 1600's depended on it so much. All true and fair enough.

But it's galling how the book works in the impact of Greek philosophy, which it lays out quite wrong. A theme repeated throughout the book is that medieval Europe was stuck in its anti-intellectual Dark Ages, blocked from the Scientific Revolution, and refusing to accept the zero in mathematics because its intellectual foundation was grounded too much in the thought of Aristotle. This is just plain wrong!

Medieval Europe was stuck in its unproductive doldrums precisely because it had forgotten about and virtually ignored the teachings of Aristotle. Aristotle was the one who had emphasized empirical observation and classification of facts-- the idea that would be at the basis of the scientific method. It was the thought of Plato and some of his colleagues, not Aristotle, that had been dominating Europe in the Middle Ages.

When Aristotle was finally re-introduced into Europe in the late Middle Ages from Middle Eastern scholars-- that's what sparked the changes in ideas that allowed the Renaissance and Age of Reason to take hold in the first place.

And Aristotle was not in any way the whole basis for Europe's lack of a zero in its numbers. There's a lot of citing of Aristotle's "Nature abhors a vacuum" comment here, but this had little to do with Europe consciously rejecting the zero, because there was no conscious rejection to begin with.

The Europeans were just using the Roman numeral system, which had no zero, because that was the custom of the day and people were used to it. Most number systems worldwide didn't have a zero because the various cultures figured they didn't need it-- there was no European "math legislature" that rejected a proposal to add a zero, it's just that nobody thought to add it in.

When the Mediterranean merchants began using the Arabic numerals with the zero, they just found it to be more useful than the Roman numerals, and for that practical reason people switched over. Simple as that.

Maybe Aristotle's "Nature abhors a vacuum" comment is right, since physicists seem to finding all kinds of wild particles and constituents filling up what's been called the vacuum. (The later part of this book explores these areas a little, and doesn't do a good job of it-- it's out of date and disorganized.) I don't know, I'm not an expert in this, but there's probably no easy explanation and the book's tendency to paint Aristotle as a misleading scholar becomes downright irritating.

Maybe I'm just being a picky classics student here, but it's frustrating to read the history of Aristotle in Europe be told so incorrectly. Aristotle's ideas if anything were the most essential ingredient for Europe's ability to wake up out of the Middle Ages and experience an intellectual flowering."

Interesting, is it not?
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"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - G. K. Chesterton
alice
Guest
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2006, 10:41:PM »

Aristotle, who represented the crown of secular human thought, was rightly embraced by the Church, and the Church has used his system of logic married to Faith, to prove where he went wrong as well as improve upon our understanding of reality. 

 

Aristotle could not have even DREAMED of what was to be found in regards to "reality" in the late 19th century by Max Planck, the early 20th century by Niels Bohr, Schroedinger, and Heisenberg. I certainly don't dispute that Aristotle was a great philosopher. Born today, he would be a scientist of the "new physics" I'm sure of that....

 

 

Since we are finite creatures, we need to rely on the progress of the past- not throw it out in favor of a new synthesis.   Yet moderns have utterly rejected this progress in favor of their Godless, secular society- the city of Man, which cannot rival the city of God which Christ has prepared for us in heaven.  We were not created for this world.  There will be no utopia in this life.  Every attempt at utopia has failed miserably.  The New World Order is nothing more than a New Tower of Babel.  God will one day destroy it, just as he destroyed the original. 

 

WOW! I don't even know how to respond to that....If that is what you need to tell yourself to get through life in this "crazy crazy world"....well more power to ya....

 

God bless all of you but this forum is a little too over the top for me....nice web site though. (Pretty art work!)

 

Adios....

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