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CounterRevolutionary
Est. 1789

Member

Posts: 690


« on: November 07, 2006, 04:03:PM »

Does anyone know the link to a former post about why the SSPX re-confirms people? Are there any good articles on the subject someone would reccomend?

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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2006, 07:06:PM »

I think the SSPX conditionally gives the sacrament of confirmation because some NO bishops have not used the proper matter, if I am correct. It seems some NO bishops have used vegetable oil instead of olive oil for the sacrament of confirmation, is that right, anyone?

 

I do not remember now if the proper matter was used, for my own confirmation was done with the NO rite. Although, I think mine was valid if I have been having such a sudden and gradual growth in knowing of and keeping the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith was not such a big interest then as it was now for me, I mean. In high school, I was more interested in history and politics, which are still interests of mine, but now Catholicism has somehow become the bigger interest for me. I must say then, in other words, that since the time of my confirmation, I have grown in the Catholic faith. So then it seems my confirmation had to have been valid, for I have grown in the partaking of the Church's graces. That is simply my recent experience, of course.

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LEX SUPREMA SALUS ANIMARUM EST.

REQUIESCANT IN PACE ANIMAE IUSTORUM.
Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2006, 03:16:PM »

Kephapaulos, just because you've grow in your knowledge of the true Catholic Faith does not mean you have received the Sacrament of Confirmation the Grace of which is becoming a Soldier of Christ and being able to defend the Faith, you should already have a good and great knowledge of the Faith for that is the Supernatural virtue we ask for at our holy Baptism. Second, I believe that the SSPX conditionally confirms (not re-confirms because that is a sacrilege) mainly because of the intention though the matter might be a secondary or equal reason.

Here's St. Aquinas on the possible necessity of olive oil (I say "possible" because the Angelic Doctor does not say "must" but "is" and "alone" as well as"should" not "must"; See Objection 3. and it's reply):

Quote
Whether chrism is a fitting matter for this sacrament?

 

Objection 1. It seems that chrism is not a fitting matter for this sacrament. For this sacrament, as stated above (1, ad 1), was instituted by Christ when He promised His disciples the Holy Ghost. But He sent them the Holy Ghost without their being anointed with chrism. Moreover, the apostles themselves bestowed this sacrament without chrism, by the mere imposition of hands: for it is written (Acts 8:17) that the apostles "laid their hands upon" those who were baptized, "and they received the Holy Ghost." Therefore chrism is not the matter of this sacrament: since the matter is essential to the sacrament.

   

Objection 2. Further, Confirmation perfects, in a way, the sacrament of Baptism, as stated above (65, 3-4): and so it ought to be conformed to it as perfection to the thing perfected. But the matter, in Baptism, is a simple element, viz. water. Therefore chrism, which is made of oil and balm, is not a fitting matter for this sacrament.

   

Objection 3. Further, oil is used as the matter of this sacrament for the purpose of anointing. But any oil will do for anointing: for instance, oil made from nuts, and from anything else. Therefore not only olive oil should be used for this sacrament.

   

Objection 4. Further, it has been stated above (66, 3) that water is used as the matter of Baptism, because it is easily procured everywhere. But olive oil is not to be procured everywhere; and much less is balm. Therefore chrism, which is made of these, is not a fitting matter for this sacrament.

   

On the contrary, Gregory says (Registr. iv): "Let no priest dare to sign the baptized infants on the brow with the sacred chrism." Therefore chrism is the matter of this sacrament.

   

I answer that, Chrism is the fitting matter of this sacrament. For, as stated above (1), in this sacrament the fullness of the Holy Ghost is given for the spiritual strength which belongs to the perfect age. Now when man comes to perfect age he begins at once to have intercourse with others; whereas until then he lives an individual life, as it were, confined to himself. Now the grace of the Holy Ghost is signified by oil; hence Christ is said to be "anointed with the oil of gladness" (Psalm 44:8), by reason of His being gifted with the fullness of the Holy Ghost. Consequently oil is a suitable matter of this sacrament. And balm is mixed with the oil, by reason of its fragrant odor, which spreads about: hence the Apostle says (2 Corinthians 2:15): "We are the good odor of Christ," etc. And though many other things be fragrant, yet preference is given to balm, because it has a special odor of its own, and because it confers incorruptibility: hence it is written (Sirach 24:21): "My odor is as the purest balm."

   

Reply to Objection 1. Christ, by the power which He exercises in the sacraments, bestowed on the apostles the reality of this sacrament, i.e. the fullness of the Holy Ghost, without the sacrament itself, because they had received "the first fruits of the Spirit" (Romans 8:23). Nevertheless, something of keeping with the matter of this sacrament was displayed to the apostles in a sensible manner when they received the Holy Ghost. For that the Holy Ghost came down upon them in a sensible manner under the form of fire, refers to the same signification as oil: except in so far as fire has an active power, while oil has a passive power, as being the matter and incentive of fire. And this was quite fitting: for it was through the apostles that the grace of the Holy Ghost was to flow forth to others. Again, the Holy Ghost came down on the apostles in the shape of a tongue. Which refers to the same signification as balm: except in so far as the tongue communicates with others by speech, but balm, by its odor. because, to wit, the apostles were filled with the Holy Ghost, as teachers of the Faith; but the rest of the believers, as doing that which gives edification to the faithful.

   

In like manner, too, when the apostles imposed their hands, and when they preached, the fullness of the Holy Ghost came down under visible signs on the faithful, just as, at the beginning, He came down on the apostles: hence Peter said (Acts 11:15): "When I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning." Consequently there was no need for sacramental sensible matter, where God sent sensible signs miraculously.

   

However, the apostles commonly made use of chrism in bestowing the sacrament, when such like visible signs were lacking. For Dionysius says (Eccl. Hier. iv): "There is a certain perfecting operation which our guides," i.e. the apostles, "call the sacrifice of Chrism."

   

Reply to Objection 2. Baptism is bestowed that spiritual life may be received simply; wherefore simple matter is fitting to it. But this sacrament is given that we may receive the fullness of the Holy Ghost, Whose operations are manifold, according to Wis. 7:22-23, "For in her is the Spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtle, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtle."; and 1 Cor. 12:4, "There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit." Consequently a compound matter is appropriate to this sacrament.

   

Reply to Objection 3. These properties of oil, by reason of which it symbolizes the Holy Ghost, are to be found in olive oil rather than in any other oil. In fact, the olive-tree itself, through being an evergreen, signifies the refreshing and merciful operation of the Holy Ghost.

 

Moreover, this oil is called oil properly, and is very much in use, wherever it is to be had. And whatever other liquid is so called, derives its name from its likeness to this oil: nor are the latter commonly used, unless it be to supply the want of olive oil. Therefore it is that this oil alone is used for this and certain other sacraments.

   

Reply to Objection 4. Baptism is the sacrament of absolute necessity; and so its matter should be at hand everywhere. But it is enough that the matter of this sacrament, which is not of such great necessity, be easily sent to all parts of the world.

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CounterRevolutionary
Est. 1789

Member

Posts: 690


« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2006, 07:33:PM »

So what do the Novus Ordo bishops use? I was taught they use Sacred Chrism....

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Ourladyofconsolation06
Veritatem facientes
in caritate

Member

Posts: 1,059


« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2006, 07:39:PM »

Quote from: CounterRevolutionary

So what do the Novus Ordo bishops use? I was taught they use Sacred Chrism....


Most do use Sacred Chrism (Valid Matter) but then again you always have the wacky bishop who decides to use something else, Corn Oil for instance, just to get the satisfaction of going against the Rubrics.
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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2006, 10:11:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
 

Kephapaulos, just because you've grow in your knowledge of the true Catholic Faith does not mean you have received the Sacrament of Confirmation the Grace of which is becoming a Soldier of Christ and being able to defend the Faith, you should already have a good and great knowledge of the Faith for that is the Supernatural virtue we ask for at our holy Baptism. Second, I believe that the SSPX conditionally confirms (not re-confirms because that is a sacrilege) mainly because of the intention though the matter might be a secondary or equal reason.

 

Let me somewhat correct then what I said before: It is not so much then that I see my confirmation to have been valid because of my growing in the knowledge and interest of the faith, but it is more so due to keeping the Faith and to growing in the life of grace. I have seen it. It is what I have observed from my own experience. I have been able to defend the Faith in that case then in being a Soldier of Christ.

 

EDITED

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LEX SUPREMA SALUS ANIMARUM EST.

REQUIESCANT IN PACE ANIMAE IUSTORUM.
CounterRevolutionary
Est. 1789

Member

Posts: 690


« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2006, 11:14:PM »

Quote from: Ourladyofconsolation06
Quote from: CounterRevolutionary

So what do the Novus Ordo bishops use? I was taught they use Sacred Chrism....



Most do use Sacred Chrism (Valid Matter) but then again you always have the wacky bishop who decides to use something else, Corn Oil for instance, just to get the satisfaction of going against the Rubrics.

Oh then Im more than safe. I was confirmed by Bishop Loverde of the Diocese of Arlington. He's certainly not a trad, but his diocese is the most conservative in the USA after Lincoln, Nebraska.

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Ginette
Member

Gender: Female
Location: Ireland
Personality type: Melancholic-choleric
Posts: 307



« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2006, 03:45:PM »

Does the question of the bishop's intention not apply here? This worries me because the bishop who confirmed me certainly has some way out ideas, I can't say however what his beliefs are concerning Confirmation itself.

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The persistence of Mary about the dangers which threaten the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul   -  Cardinal Pacelli (Pope Pius XII)
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