Skirts at work

[Daniel]

LovelyKatieLynn

 

Just to get back on the real topic. I think you should make some small effort if you feel the pants have an inappropriate design. If not there is no use becoming the enemy within over it. Some bosses can be quite petty and hold grudges over the most pathetic and insignificant issues. If he will not change his mind and there is no grave issue with the pants design then obedience never hurt anyone. Good luck.

[miss_fluffy]

 

Moreover, the statements 'Her clothing was modest and feminine' and 'She was a professional single woman, who wore beautifully tailored pantsuits' are irreconcilable from a traditional Catholic point of view.  This just begs questions like, 'Why is she single?', 'Why is she a "professional"?', 'Why does a traditional Catholic woman insist upon wearing pants?', and so on.

I'm single, I'm a professional.  Would you prefer I refrain from working and live in a box until I find a suitable husband to beat me?  I agree that it's silly for a woman to make a big stink about wearing a dress/skirt to church.  But some women truly feel uncomfortable in skirts.  Some women are nervous about the feeling of air coming up their nether regions etc.

 

We can't know this woman's reason for being so adamant about wearing pants to church.  But to start criticizing her for being single and having a career?  Your words are very misogynistic and there's getting around that. 

 

Get your head out of the sand and look at the reality of the world around you.  Not everyone was raised in a perfect large Catholic family, married off at 18 to Mr. Perfect.  Women often have to fend for themselves, they often have parents that don't continue to care for them if they are still single into their 20s.  And, not all women are suited for marriage.  I think the world would be a lot better off if those men/women who aren't really suited to raise children remain single and perhaps put their energy into careers.  And especially if a woman is having problems relating to her femininity, is not comfortable in skirts etc.  She should remain single! 

[MagisterMusicae]

If only it were simply a matter for discussion!  Women take offense at this because it directly affects their lives and interactions with others in their traditional community.  Women who choose to wear pants, no matter what the reason, no matter if it is for one day out of 365, or for the entire year, will invariably be ostracized, gossiped about, and otherwise excluded in parish life as a raving feminist.  Their children will no longer have other children to play with, they will be denied the sacraments, expelled from school, and otherwise made to feel as second class citizens.   So the mother who decides that it is better and more practical for her daughter to wear a pair of non-body-conforming capris to the volleyball party (for when she dives for that ball,) will suddenly find herself on the outside of the community that she (and her daughter) is in such dire need of.  

I think this is a very important paragraph, especially the statement I highlighted. Because one cannot overlook the fact that many trad communities are absolutely brutal on any woman who chooses to wear pants or lets her daughters wear them. It's as if they focus on that issue, and that alone, making it the total reflection of someone's faith and holiness.

I knew a woman who was literally hounded out of an SSPX community over the "pants" issue. She had talked to the priest about it, but he did nothing to stop the behavior of the parishioners, so he was essentially complicit in this treatment of her. She was a professional single woman, who wore beautifully tailored pantsuits. Her clothing was modest and feminine.

I have noticed in the "dresses only" crowd a sad lack of charity (and as a former protestant, I've seen this in those circles as well) . They have the virtue of modesty, but have forgotten that there are others virtues, as well. Additionally, everyone is at a different point in their faith.

The last paragraph is one with which I cannot argue. Often you get "modesty police" who take it upon themselves to enforce the dress code. That's not acceptable. Charitable correction is, but certainly not "hounding".

That said, in the many chapels I have been at in my years of moving around, SSPX and Independent, I have found only a few cases where people left over the "pants" issue. Why did they leave? Well, they came in pants, were gently corrected by the pastor and after a few weeks they were still wearing pants to Mass. They were corrected again, and refused to wear a skirt or dress.

See, I think we can speak about ideals and about what we should wear in public and disagree, and perhaps come to some reasonable statement. If, however, you go to a place (church) where there is a certain dress code, you may slide through the first time, but after being informed you should stick to the dress code. Letting you in the first time is quite charitable, as a fancy restaurant with a dress code that you do not meet, would turn you away at the door. You wouldn't insist on a new standard at the restaurant, so why at church?

Too, if you live in and around a traditional community, you should be expected to adhere to the general standards, which, in public, include the wearing of skirts or dresses for women (whether or not that standard is right or wrong). It also generally includes some standards for men as well. If you refuse to behave in public according to the general rules of society (whatever society it be) you are going to be ostracized. And there is nothing uncharitable about that. If you refuse to respect the general rules, you do not receive respect. Christians dealt with that from day one, granted it was over more serious issues. If you live in a traditional Catholic community or around other traditional Catholics, when you wear pants in public, when the generally accepted standard is a dress, count on rumblings.

[Clare]

That said, in the many chapels I have been at in my years of moving around, SSPX and Independent, I have found only a few cases where people left over the "pants" issue. Why did they leave? Well, they came in pants, were gently corrected by the pastor and after a few weeks they were still wearing pants to Mass. They were corrected again, and refused to wear a skirt or dress.

"Correction" implies that the "culprit" is doing something wrong.

 

Clare.

[Kenny]

As MagisterMusicae pointed out in a previous post, even restaurants reserve the right to impose a dress code. The SSPX, or any independent chapel for that matter, all the more has a right to impose a dress code for the faithful and visitors who go to its chapels.

Just for the record, I'm ambivalent on this skirts vs pants issue.

[Varus]

As MagisterMusicae pointed out in a previous post, even restaurants reserve the right to impose a dress code. The SSPX, or any independent chapel for that matter, all the more has a right to impose a dress code for the faithful and visitors who go to its chapels.

 

Of course they have such a right. What I find to be a good thing is that traditional chapels and churches are actually more welcoming and lenient with first-timers who are not properly dressed (out of ignorance), than restaurants are about enforcing their dress code.

 

 

[CaroleK]

Andrew,
 
 I agree with your first premise.  That a parish/chapel has a right to ask that those attending accept and adhere to a reasonable dress code requirement.
 
 But I think that that point our agreement comes to an end.  But I have to ask a couple of questions first.

Well, they came in pants, were gently corrected by the pastor and after a few weeks they were still wearing pants to Mass. They were corrected again, and refused to wear a skirt or dress.


 If, however, you go to a place (church) where there is a certain dress code, you may slide through the first time, but after being informed you should stick to the dress code. Letting you in the first time is quite charitable, as a fancy restaurant with a dress code that you do not meet, would turn you away at the door. You wouldn't insist on a new standard at the restaurant, so why at church?

I fully agree with you here.

Too, if you live in and around a traditional community, you should be expected to adhere to the general standards, which, in public, include the wearing of skirts or dresses for women (whether or not that standard is right or wrong).



If you live in a traditional Catholic community or around other traditional Catholics, when you wear pants in public, when the generally accepted standard is a dress, count on rumblings.

Are you saying here that if one lives in a community with a large traditionalist population that one is then required to adhere to the dress code of the chapel at all times and in all places?  Even if that dress code is not a dogmatic principle?

I agree that a chapel/parish has every right to have a minimum standard of dress and to expect that those who regularly attend adhere to that standard.  But I stop agreeing when you start telling people that they must adhere to that same standard outside of the chapel/parish.

For instance - If I live near a group of traditionalist Catholics and I run to the pharmacy to pick up a cough medicine I have to wear a skirt because that is what other attendees at my parish/chapel believe I should be wearing?

I also would like to ask where there are such "traditional communities" where things are so tight knit as to require such scrupulosity in adherence to a dress code that is at best a matter of personal piety?

[MagisterMusicae]

To all who insist that wearing skirts is mandatory and those who do not are deserving of harsh condemnation and shunning:

Show me ONE document from the Church that says that it is a dogmatic teaching that it is a sin (venial or mortal) for a woman to wear modest trousers.  One.  Not a letter from Bishop Williamson or from any other Cardinal or Pope unless it is an encyclical specifically stating that this is a matter of dogma and thus must be adhered to by all Catholics.

Just one will do.

Until then you're all setting yourselves up as judge and jury over an issue that in the final analysis is a matter of personal piety and personal discretion.

Your post hardly deserves any response, except that I don't want you going off thinking that this is a matter of dogma and that you had a decent argument here.

Since the Popes have not written some moto proprio or encyclical letter about drinking soy, I guess I should reserve judgment about whether it is better for my health than regular milk.

Dogmas are defined beliefs, not defined sins.

[Kenny]

I have seen many dress codes posted in Catholic Churches. I have lived in Italy and been to St. Peter's several times, which also enforces modesty and will turn away visitors. SSPX chapels are the only place where I have ever heard of a "dresses only" mandate for women.

And probably one of the few places where you can still find veiling a mandate for women.

I know of no other place that enforces a stricter dress code than SSPX chapels. I have been "corrected" a few times myself.

[CaroleK]

Your post hardly deserves any response, except that I don't want you going off thinking that this is a matter of dogma and that you had a decent argument here.

Since the Popes have not written some moto proprio or encyclical letter about drinking soy, I guess I should reserve judgment about whether it is better for my health than regular milk.

Dogmas are defined beliefs, not defined sins.

Andrew,

I know what dogma is.  That is my point.  This is not a matter of dogma to which all of the faithful MUST adhere.  This is not an issue on which any of us is able (or should believe we are able) of judging the soul, sanctification or Catholicity of another.

My very point is that the fact that this is not a dogmatic decree that women must always at all times wear skirts lest she be branded not Catholic/not modest/not traditional/etc.  Or that all Catholics must adhere to the opinions of others on what is proper and appropriate.

Until such time as the Church declares that this is a matter of dogma I am able to believe that skirts are not the only modest attire in the world.