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Author Topic: Skirts at work  (Read 19047 times)
rosie02_2003
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« Reply #270 on: January 07, 2007, 06:54:PM »

 Can someone please explain to me how these pants are modest? A seemingly loose fitting pair but you turn them around and ones eyes cannot help but wander to the area wear the pants split apart.

 

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liliaagri
Member

Posts: 357


« Reply #271 on: January 07, 2007, 07:00:PM »

Quote from: MagisterMusicae
Quote from: liliaagri
 

You're still begging the question. No one here (and no one I've ever met) has been able to provide proof that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.



No one here has said it is a sin. More than a few have suggested that either pants are immodest or that it is harmful to a woman, but no one has suggested that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

 

Ancilla Indigna said exactly that. Maybe you should read the posts you missed instead of stating your same arguments over and over without reading other peoples'.


Quote

 

Quote from: liliaagri
Once again, there were no pants at the time of Dueteronomy[sic], and any assumption that the quotation refers them is nothing more than begging the question.


Well, we did not have pornographic photos at the time of the Ten Commandments, so any assumption that that "neighbor's wife" bit means pornographic photos are immoral is, according to your logic, begging the question.

 

Pornographic images are inherently wrong. A woman wearing pants is not. If you insist it is without backing up your claim, you are begging the question. I would have thought the difference between these two things was obvious.

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"Got no feel, I got no rhythm
I just keep losing my beat
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I ain`t gonna face no defeat
I just gotta get out of this prison cell
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MagisterMusicae
Resident Contrarian
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 2,221



« Reply #272 on: January 07, 2007, 07:27:PM »

Quote from: liliaagri
Quote from: MagisterMusicae
Quote from: liliaagri
You're still begging the question. No one here (and no one I've ever met) has been able to provide proof that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

No one here has said it is a sin. More than a few have suggested that either pants are immodest or that it is harmful to a woman, but no one has suggested that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

Ancilla Indigna said exactly that. Maybe you should read the posts you missed instead of stating your same arguments over and over without reading other peoples'.


I read the posts, thanks, and I have continually interacted with a few decent comments and the great amount of pointless rhetoric tossed about. I keep reiterating my points because I remain unchallenged on most.

 Ancillae implied it might be a sin, but did not say that wearing any pants was a sin:

Quote from: Ancilla_Indigna
Well, if the person doesn't know it's a sin, then usually it is not a sin (hey, but if the person doesn't know it's a sin to dress for the purpose to provoke lust, but they know it's a sin to have lust in one's heart, by their intent they are sinning --- even with their hardened conscience, yes it's true). But for something like wearing pants because it's what the boss wants, then it's an issue of one's spiritual, interior disposition. If one is less zealous, then the sin could very well be that of spiritual sloth. Now, that's not condoning disobedience to one's superior, but there are other jobs out there.

 


Quote from: liliaagri
Quote from: MagisterMusicae

Quote from: liliaagri
Once again, there were no pants at the time of Dueteronomy[sic], and any assumption that the quotation refers them is nothing more than begging the question.

Well, we did not have pornographic photos at the time of the Ten Commandments, so any assumption that that "neighbor's wife" bit means pornographic photos are immoral is, according to your logic, begging the question.

Pornographic images are inherently wrong. A woman wearing pants is not. If you insist it is without backing up your claim, you are begging the question. I would have thought the difference between these two things was obvious.


I'm using your own logic. The bible could not be envisioning the future, just talking about what was existing at the time. That's what you essentially affirmed. Paraphrasing: Pants did not exist as men's clothing, so Deuteronomy could not be referring to pants.

You're begging the question, not I, when you say pornographic images are inherently wrong. I agree that they are inherently wrong, but the Ten Commandments do not specifically prohibit Pornographic photos, so if we're going to do the "letter of the law" opposed to the "spirit of the law" approach that you forwarded, then my syllogism holds quite well.

If "Pornographic Photos do not violate the Ten Commandments, because they did not exist when the Commandment were written" is absurd (and I think it is), then so too, is your argument that pants could not be included in what was said in Deuteronomy about men and women's attire. It is the same logic.
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Philomena
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« Reply #273 on: January 07, 2007, 07:27:PM »

Quote from: rosie02_2003

 Can someone please explain to me how these pants are modest? A seemingly loose fitting pair but you turn them around and ones eyes cannot help but wander to the area wear the pants split apart.

 

They cannot help but wander?

 

It seems to me that it takes two to "inflame lust" in men: a woman to dress immodestly and a man to notice that she has done so. To what extent is it the woman's responsibility to dress modestly and to what extent is it a man's repsonsibility to maintain a decent custody of the eyes? As far as I can tell, no one here is advocating immodest dress for women. But ruling out trousers altogether as an option for women, merely on the basis that they define the legs and buttocks, would seem to be absolving men of all responsibility in this regard.

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rosie02_2003
Guest
« Reply #274 on: January 07, 2007, 07:54:PM »

Quote from: MagisterMusicae
Quote from: liliaagri
 

You're still begging the question. No one here (and no one I've ever met) has been able to provide proof that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.



No one here has said it is a sin. More than a few have suggested that either pants are immodest or that it is harmful to a woman, but no one has suggested that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants.

Still, this line of reasoning is terribly flawed. It assumes that only if something is a sin should it be avoided. It is akin to being sorry for your sins because they may send you to Hell, not because they offend God.

Should sin be the determining factor in whether we do something? Should we be allowed to do something imprudent or harmful, even if it is not a sin? Or should we look for a higher ideal, like the glory of God?

Should we not ask the question, "Does this help me to grow in my spiritual life, and does it help glorify God?" instead of "Is it a sin?"

 

very well said Smile

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liliaagri
Member

Posts: 357


« Reply #275 on: January 07, 2007, 08:06:PM »

Quote from: MagisterMusicae
I keep reiterating my points because I remain unchallenged on most.

Now you're really kidding yourself. Maybe you should read them again and try to understand them this time.

Quote
I'm using your own logic. The bible could not be envisioning the future, just talking about what was existing at the time. That's what you essentially affirmed. Paraphrasing: Pants did not exist as men's clothing, so Deuteronomy could not be referring to pants.

You're begging the question, not I, when you say pornographic images are inherently wrong. I agree that they are inherently wrong, but the Ten Commandments do not specifically prohibit Pornographic photos, so if we're going to do the "letter of the law" opposed to the "spirit of the law" approach that you forwarded, then my syllogism holds quite well.

If "Pornographic Photos do not violate the Ten Commandments, because they did not exist when the Commandment were written" is absurd (and I think it is), then so too, is your argument that pants could not be included in what was said in Deuteronomy about men and women's attire. It is the same logic.

 

You're not using my logic, because you're not using any logic. I'm not even sure if you know what it means to beg the question. The person who quoted Deuteronomy did so in order to prove that it's a sin for a women to wear pants. We all know that it's sin to cross-dress. The argument is whether or not it's cross-dressing for women to wear pants.

 

Now, if I quoted the Bible and said, "This is a reason why it's wrong to drive cars" even though there are no cars in the Bible, would it make any sense to say "Yes, it is wrong, because cars didn't exist when the ten commandments were written but they're still wrong. We can't just follow the letter of the law"? And then, if someone objected, would a logical response be, "Well, there was no pornography in Biblical times, either. But it's still wrong."

 

What you are missing here is that some things are sins and others aren't. No one was able to provide proof that it is a sin for women to wear pants.

 

Here's the bottom line: some Traditional Catholic men want their women in skirts EVEN when there no question of immodesty or feminism. I don't know why these men don't find something important to think about instead of having such an endless preoccupation with a woman's legs.

 

I'm done with this idiocy, until someone brings the topic up again.

 

 

 

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"Got no feel, I got no rhythm
I just keep losing my beat
I`m alright, I`m alright
I ain`t gonna face no defeat
I just gotta get out of this prison cell
Someday I`m gonna be free..."
Spooky7272
Guest
« Reply #276 on: January 07, 2007, 08:07:PM »

Quote from: rosie02_2003

Can someone please explain  to me how these pants are modest? A seemingly loose fitting pair but  you turn them around and ones eyes cannot help but wander to the area  wear the pants split apart.

 
  I seriously don't see how these pants are "immodest".
 
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Paul
Member

Posts: 2,592


« Reply #277 on: January 07, 2007, 08:14:PM »

Quote from: Philomena

It seems to me that it takes two to "inflame lust" in men: a woman to dress immodestly and a man to notice that she has done so. To what extent is it the woman's responsibility to dress modestly and to what extent is it a man's repsonsibility to maintain a decent custody of the eyes?


If a woman is wearing modest clothing, and a man decides to gaze at particular parts of her body, that's his fault. But when she's wearing clothing that tends to draw his eyes to those parts, when he looks at her, his eyes go where they shouldn't almost automatically. He should then look elsewhere, but it's much harder, and there's responsibility on her part for wearing such clothes.

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rosie02_2003
Guest
« Reply #278 on: January 07, 2007, 08:19:PM »

Quote from: Spooky7272
Quote from: rosie02_2003
 

Can someone please explain to me how these pants are modest? A seemingly loose fitting pair but you turn them around and ones eyes cannot help but wander to the area wear the pants split apart.



I seriously don't see how these pants are "immodest".

 

Some Directives of the Magisterium on Christian Modesty
(Taken from the Spring/Summer 1998 issue of The Fatima Crusader)

 in which the following is said:

 

IN GENERAL, clothes should hide the shape of the body rather than accentuate it.  Only this kind of clothing can truly be called "decent".  This rule automatically excludes slacks (which are masculine apparel) for women.  Feminine apparel is a skirt or a dress which must cover the woman's knees when she is seated.  Decency in dress is to be observed, not only at Mass on Sundays, but every day of the week.  The deciding factor is not whether slacks or culottes are more comfortable than a skirt, but rather to do the Will of God, by "loving Him in all things and above all things" (Collect of the 6th Sunday after Pentecost).

 

According to this, the pants shown are not exactly hiding the shape of the body. Just my observation.

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Philomena
Guest
« Reply #279 on: January 07, 2007, 08:37:PM »

Quote from: Paul
Quote from: Philomena

It seems to me that it takes two to "inflame lust" in men: a woman to dress immodestly and a man to notice that she has done so. To what extent is it the woman's responsibility to dress modestly and to what extent is it a man's repsonsibility to maintain a decent custody of the eyes?


If a woman is wearing modest clothing, and a man decides to gaze at particular parts of her body, that's his fault. But when she's wearing clothing that tends to draw his eyes to those parts, when he looks at her, his eyes go where they shouldn't almost automatically. He should then look elsewhere, but it's much harder, and there's responsibility on her part for wearing such clothes.

True. So the question is: How much does she have to reveal to make it "her fault"? That is where the disagreement lies. And no matter how long we keep debating this question, we are not going to manage to define modest dress for women in a way that everyone is going to agree upon.

 

But the original question was between pants and skirts. Are pants intrinsically immodest? Does a simple division in a piece of fabric automatically inspire lustful thoughts in men? Or are the details of dress that have the potential to inspire such thoughts so varied that any attempt to declare whole categories of clothing modest or immodest quickly becomes an exercise in futility?     

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