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Author Topic: Tasered for smoking  (Read 1685 times)
VoxClamantis
Guest
« on: January 27, 2007, 07:45:PM »

Just a reminder that every single law -- whether it's tax law, business type regulatory law, professional licensing, "thou shalt not sell trans fats" law, criminal law, FDA type stuff -- is a call for the State to use violence in its enforcement. A citizen either complies with a law, or resists it, and in resisting, he is setting himself up for physical violence in the end. Take even a "little law," like the requirement to have a license in order to braid someone's hair for money: So-and-So goes ahead and braids her friend's hair for $20. She is cited. She either goes to Court or resists. She resists, and a cop shows up. She either complies or resists with the police. She resists, and she is tasered, shot, chewed-up by dogs, whatever.
 
Americans are too quick to call for new laws; we have miles of bookshelves filled with them -- most of them entirely unknown to us. And each and every one is ultimately backed by violence. From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

 

 

Bus-station smoker tussles with police, jailed
Thursday, January 18, 2007
By Torsten Ove, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

 

An Armenian national who apparently didn't think much of anti-smoking laws blew cigarette smoke at a Pittsburgh police officer and ended up on the receiving end of a stun gun, arrested and jailed after a scuffle at the Greyhound bus terminal over the weekend.  

Officer Walter Carlson said Suren Chukhadzhyan, 50, who stands about 6 feet 5 inches and weighs about 250 pounds, ignored his commands to stop smoking, leading to a fight that knocked over seats and sent other travelers scrambling.  

An employee complained that a man was standing and smoking on a wooden ramp at the Second Avenue terminal, which is designated as a no-smoking area and marked with signs that say so.  

Officer Carlson responded and told Mr. Chukhadzhyan to move to a designated smoking area, according to a report.  

"The actor ignored me and made a cocky smirk to me and was very arrogant," the officer said. "[He] turned away from me and continued to smoke."  

When the officer ordered the man to turn around, he did, but blew smoke in the direction of the officer.  

Officer Carlson then grabbed the man's arm and said he would be cited, but he said Mr. Chukhadzhyan flicked his cigarette to the ground and walked away.  

Inside the terminal, the officer said, Mr. Chukhadzhyan sat down but "became agitated and clenched his fists and began to speak to himself in what appeared to be Russian."  

Officer Carlson again attempted to issue the citation, but said Mr. Chukhadzhyan stood up suddenly and approached him aggressively. The officer said he pulled out his Taser and warned, "This doesn't have to go this way."  

But he said Mr. Chukhadzhyan said "arrest me" and shoved him. The officer tried to stun him with the Taser, but the prongs didn't penetrate the man's thick coat.  

Mr. Chukhadzhyan charged.  

A nearby off-duty police officer for the Duquesne School District, Chad Stevens, saw what was happening, pulled his badge, identified himself as a police officer and joined the fray. The two officers fought with Mr. Chukhadzhyan, eventually pinning his arms and managing to cuff him after forcing him against a vending machine.  

"He was real big," said Officer Stevens, who had been on his way with his wife to Flint, Mich., to visit a sick relative. "When I tried to put the cuffs on him the first time, I couldn't get them around his wrist. Both of us had an arm and we tired him out a little, but when he wanted to move us, he did."  

Even after the cuffs were in place, Officer Carlson said, he refused to get on the floor, so they tripped him to get him down.  

Mr. Chukhadzhyan, who lives in Glendale, Calif., was charged with disorderly conduct, resisting arrest and aggravated assault on Officer Carlson.  

He was taken to the Allegheny County Jail. Police also contacted the Armenian Consulate in Washington, D.C., and notified the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

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mojomama
Guest
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 08:14:PM »

Quote
Just a reminder that every single law -- whether it's tax law, business type regulatory law, professional licensing, "thou shalt not sell trans fats" law, criminal law, FDA type stuff -- is a call for the State to use violence in its enforcement. A citizen either complies with a law, or resists it, and in resisting, he is setting himself up for physical violence in the end. Take even a "little law," like the requirement to have a license in order to braid someone's hair for money: So-and-So goes ahead and braids her friend's hair for $20. She is cited. She either goes to Court or resists. She resists, and a cop shows up. She either complies or resists with the police. She resists, and she is tasered, shot, chewed-up by dogs, whatever.
 

Not so, Vox.  In your example, she receives a notice from the state agency in charge of regulation of her business.  She can either protest and defend her position at an administrative hearing, or try to settle the matter by obtaining a license, or default and face the penalty in the state's regulatory statute.  This would not be a police matter.  There is an entire body of law which your state and every state has promulgated regarding administrative proceedings.  None of it involves threats of violence.

Here, for example, is a link to the cosmetology licensing rules in your state.

http://www.in.gov/pla/bandc/cosmetology/SBCESTATUTESANDRULES.html

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VoxClamantis
Guest
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 08:18:PM »

Quote from: mojomama
Not so, Vox.  In your example, she receives a notice from the state agency in charge of regulation of her business.  She can either protest and defend her position at an administrative hearing, or try to settle the matter by obtaining a license, or default and face the penalty in the state's regulatory statute.  This would not be a police matter.  There is an entire body of law which your state and every state has promulgated regarding administrative proceedings.  None of it involves threats of violence.
 
 
Yeah, that's how it would typically go, but the bottom line is that she either complies with all the above -- she goes to the hearing, she gets a license, she pays her fines -- or she simply continues to braid hair, at which point violence is called upon to enforce the law. If you are summoned to Court and don't appear, they put out a bench warrant. You're driving your car about town and get pulled over with a bench warrant, you get arrested. If you don't comply with arrest, you get shot. And all that could stem from braiding some girl's hair for $20. The point is that, ultimately, laws -- whether they're good laws or bad laws -- are backed up by force.
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mojomama
Guest
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 08:20:PM »

No.  It's an administrative proceeding under the executive branch.  It is not a criminal proceeding. 
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VoxClamantis
Guest
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2007, 08:24:PM »

Quote from: mojomama
No.  It's an administrative proceeding under the executive branch.  It is not a criminal proceeding.  

 
It doesn't have to be a criminal matter for violence to ultimately come into play. For ex., go open up a braid salon without a license, and resist hearings, summons, Courts, and cops at each step along the way, all with a quiet smile on your face and a simple determination to just keep braiding hair for $20 a pop. At some point, they will stop you, with force if they have to.
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mojomama
Guest
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 08:30:PM »

I'm sorry, but someone has given you wrong information about the state of the law.

The relevant sections in your state are

IC 25-1-7  

Quote
IC 25-1-7-2
    Duties of attorney general
     
 Sec. 2. The office of the attorney general, under the conditions specified in this chapter, may receive, investigate, and prosecute complaints concerning regulated occupations.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4.
 

IC 25-1-7-3
    Investigation of complaints
     
 Sec. 3. The division is responsible for the investigation of complaints concerning licensees.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4.
 

IC 25-1-7-4
    Complaints; requisites; standing
     
 Sec. 4. All complaints must be written and signed by the complainant and initially filed with the director. Except for employees of the attorney general's office acting in their official capacity, a complaint may be filed by any person, including members

of any of the boards listed in section 1 of this chapter.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4.
 

IC 25-1-7-5
    Duties and powers of director
     
 Sec. 5. (a) Subsection (b)(1) does not apply to:
         (1) a complaint filed by:
             (A) a member of any of the boards listed in section 1 of this chapter; or
             (B) the Indiana professional licensing agency; or
         (2) a complaint filed under IC 25-1-5-4.
     (b) The director has the following duties and powers:
         (1) The director shall make an initial determination as to the merit of each complaint. A copy of a complaint having merit shall be submitted to the board having jurisdiction over the licensee's regulated occupation, that board thereby acquiring jurisdiction over the matter except as otherwise provided in this chapter.
         (2) The director shall through any reasonable means notify the licensee of the nature and ramifications of the complaint and of the duty of the board to attempt to resolve the complaint through negotiation.
         (3) The director shall report any pertinent information regarding the status of the complaint to the complainant.
         (4) The director may investigate any written complaint against a licensee. The investigation shall be limited to those areas in which there appears to be a violation of statutes governing the regulated occupation.
         (5) The director has the power to subpoena witnesses and to send for and compel the production of books, records, papers, and documents for the furtherance of any investigation under this chapter. The circuit or superior court located in the county where the subpoena is to be issued shall enforce any such subpoena by the director.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.22-1999, SEC.2; P.L.14-2000, SEC.55; P.L.206-2005, SEC.11.
 

IC 25-1-7-6
    Statement of settlement; period to resolve
     
 Sec. 6. (a) This section does not apply to:
         (1) a complaint filed by:
             (A) a member of any of the boards listed in section 1 of this chapter; or
             (B) the Indiana professional licensing agency; or
         (2) a complaint filed under IC 25-1-5-4.
     (b) If, at any time before the director files the director's recommendations with the attorney general, the board files with the director a statement signed by the licensee and the complainant that the complaint has been resolved, the director shall not take further action. For a period of thirty (30) days after the director has notified

the board and the licensee that a complaint has been filed, the division shall not conduct any investigation or take any action whatsoever, unless requested by the board. If, during the thirty (30) days, the board requests an extension of the thirty (30) day time period, the director shall grant it for a period not exceeding an additional twenty (20) days. If at any time during the thirty (30) day period or an extension thereof, the board notifies the director of its intention not to proceed further to resolve the complaint, the division may proceed immediately under this chapter. For every purpose of this section, a board may designate a board member or staff member to act on behalf of or in the name of the board.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.22-1999, SEC.3; P.L.206-2005, SEC.12.
 

IC 25-1-7-7
    Disciplinary sanctions; report to attorney general; prosecution; hearing officer
     
 Sec. 7. (a) If there has been no statement of settlement filed by the board under section 6 of this chapter, and if, after conducting an investigation, the director believes that the licensee should be subjected to disciplinary sanctions by the board of his regulated occupation, then he shall so report to the attorney general. Upon receiving the director's report, the attorney general may prosecute the matter, on behalf of the state of Indiana, before the board. The board may designate any person as a hearing officer to hear the matter.
     (b) Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section, if the board by majority vote so requests, the attorney general shall prosecute the matter before the board, on behalf of the state of Indiana.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4.
 

IC 25-1-7-8
    Witnesses
     
 Sec. 8. At the hearing, the board or hearing officer may call witnesses in addition to those presented by the state or the licensee.
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4.
 

IC 25-1-7-9
    Disqualification of board member
     
 Sec. 9. A board member is disqualified from any consideration of the case if the board member filed the complaint or participated in negotiations regarding the complaint. The board member is not disqualified from the board's final determination solely because the board member was the hearing officer or determined the complaint and the information pertaining to the complaint was current significant investigative information (as defined by IC 25-23.2-1-5).
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.181-2002, SEC.1.
 

IC 25-1-7-10
    Confidentiality of complaints and information


      Sec. 10. (a) All complaints and information pertaining to the complaints shall be held in strict confidence until the attorney general files notice with the board of the attorney general's intent to prosecute the licensee.
     (b) A person in the employ of the office of attorney general or any of the boards, or any person not a party to the complaint, may not disclose or further a disclosure of information concerning the complaint unless the disclosure is required:
         (1) under law; or
         (2) for the advancement of an investigation.
     (c) Notwithstanding subsections (a) and (b), under IC 25-23.2 the state board of nursing may disclose to the coordinated licensure information system (as defined by IC 25-23.2-1-4) complaints and information concerning complaints that the board determines to be current significant investigative information (as defined by IC 25-23.2-1-5).
 As added by Acts 1981, P.L.222, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.181-2002, SEC.2.
 

IC 25-1-7-11
    Administrative orders and procedures
     
 Sec. 11. Nothing in this chapter limits the rights of the licensee or the state under IC 4-21.5.

and

IC 4-21.5
Quote
IC 4-21.5-6
            Chapter 6. Civil Enforcement
 

IC 4-21.5-6-1
    Court order for enforcement
     
 Sec. 1. In addition to any other remedy provided by law:
         (1) an agency in its own name;
         (2) an agency in the name of the state;
         (3) the attorney general in the name of the attorney general; or
         (4) the attorney general in the name of the state at the request of an agency;
 may apply for a court order in a circuit or superior court to enforce an order issued under this article by a verified petition for civil enforcement.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1.
 

IC 4-21.5-6-2
    Enforcement of subpoenas, discovery orders, and protective orders
     
 Sec. 2. (a) This section applies only to the enforcement of a subpoena, discovery order, or protective order issued by an agency under this article.
     (b) Any party to a proceeding before an agency who has obtained an order from an administrative law judge may apply for a court order in a circuit or superior court to enforce the subpoena or order issued by an agency by a verified petition for civil enforcement. Notice of an application under this section shall be given:
         (1) to the administrative law judge issuing the order;
         (2) to the attorney general; and
         (3) to each party to the proceeding before the agency;
 by personal service or by the United States mail at the time the application is filed.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.35-1987, SEC.24.
 

IC 4-21.5-6-3
    Civil actions
     
 Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to the enforcement of a subpoena, discovery order, or protective order issued by an agency under this article.
     (b) Nothing in this chapter limits or precludes civil action under IC 13-30-1.
     (c) Any party to a proceeding concerning an agency's order may file a petition for civil enforcement of that order.
     (d) The action may not be commenced under this section if:
         (1) less than sixty (60) days has elapsed since the petitioner gave notice of the alleged violation and of the petitioner's intent to seek civil enforcement to the head of the agency concerned, to the attorney general, and to each alleged violator against whom the petitioner seeks civil enforcement;
         (2) the agency has filed and is diligently prosecuting a petition for civil enforcement of the same order against the same

defendant; or
         (3) a petition for review of the same order has been filed and is pending in court.
     (e) The petition under this section must name as defendants each alleged violator against whom the petitioner seeks civil enforcement.
     (f) The agency whose order is sought to be enforced is not a party to an action under this section unless the agency moves to intervene. The court shall grant an agency's motion to intervene and shall allow the agency to intervene as a plaintiff or defendant.
     (g) The agency whose order is sought to be enforced under this section may move to dismiss on the grounds that the petition fails to qualify under this section or that enforcement would be contrary to the policy of the agency. The court shall grant the motion to dismiss unless the petitioner demonstrates that:
         (1) the petition qualifies under this section; and
         (2) the agency's failure to enforce its order is based on an exercise of discretion that is improper on one (1) or more of the grounds provided in IC 4-21.5-5-14.
     (h) Except to the extent expressly authorized by law, a petition for civil enforcement filed under this section may not request, and the court may not grant, any monetary payment apart from taxable costs.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.35-1987, SEC.25; P.L.1-1996, SEC.26.
 

IC 4-21.5-6-4
    Naming violators required
     
 Sec. 4. A petition for civil enforcement must name as defendants each alleged violator against whom the party seeks to obtain civil enforcement.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1.
 

IC 4-21.5-6-5
    Venue
     
 Sec. 5. Venue is determined in accordance with the rules governing civil actions in the courts.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1.
 

IC 4-21.5-6-6
    Relief granted
     
 Sec. 6. Upon a showing that a person has violated an order issued under this article, the court may grant:
         (1) an injunction requested by any petitioner without bond;
         (2) a restraining order or any appropriate relief other than an injunction requested by a petitioner under section 1 of this chapter without bond;
         (3) a subpoena, discovery order, or protective order requested under section 2 of this chapter without a bond; or
         (4) a restraining order or any appropriate relief other than an injunction requested by a petitioner under section 3 of this chapter with the bond specified by the court.


As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1.
 
 
IC 4-21.5-6-7
    Appeal
     
 Sec. 7. Decisions on petitions for civil enforcement are appealable in accordance with the rules governing civil appeals from the courts.
 As added by P.L.18-1986, SEC.1.
 

The remedies are in 4-21.5-6-6 and none of them involve police violence.

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VoxClamantis
Guest
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2007, 08:36:PM »

And these are the sections relevant to what I'm saying: 

"The circuit or superior court located in the county where the subpoena is to be issued shall enforce any such subpoena by the director."

 "If there has been no statement of settlement filed by the board under section 6 of this chapter, and if, after conducting an investigation, the director believes that the licensee should be subjected to disciplinary sanctions by the board of his regulated occupation, then he shall so report to the attorney general. Upon receiving the director's report, the attorney general may prosecute the matter, on behalf of the state of Indiana, before the board."

"Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section, if the board by majority vote so requests, the attorney general shall prosecute the matter before the board, on behalf of the state of Indiana."
 
See what I mean?

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mojomama
Guest
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2007, 08:41:PM »

Quote
Upon receiving the director's report, the attorney general may prosecute the matter, on behalf of the state of Indiana, before the board.

Right.  That's an administrative matter.  The board is a part of the executive.  No cops, no violence.

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VoxClamantis
Guest
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2007, 08:43:PM »

Quote from: mojomama
Right.  That's an administrative matter.  The board is a part of the executive.  No cops, no violence.

 
Until you resist the board's decisions.
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mojomama
Guest
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2007, 08:44:PM »

Right, then you go to 4-21.5-6.  The remedies are spelled out.
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