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Author Topic: Pope's Latinist Pronounces Death of a Language  (Read 4473 times)
iuducame
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Posts: 3


« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 08:49:PM »

"Surely, someone who excels in language is aware of how words like this insult Catholicism, and are in direct contradiction to Ecclesia Dei."

perhaps he is saying something deeper beyond the face of it - sometimes people speak obtusely when making a profound point - Jesus for example.

(Please excuse me if I speak with too much familiarity - it is my style.  I've just started posting here after lurking for a month or so.  The oral sex thread in the gal's section was the biggest hoot I'd had in a long time.  You all are a fun bunch!)

m
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darkwater
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Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 68



« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 09:11:PM »

I have no clue where this priest stands on the 1962 Mass, but I was thinking today. Maybe what he means is that the idea of bringing back the Mass without a support for it in the form of people who can speak Latin is pointless? Looking at it that way, I agree with him. After the Pope's generation passes on, will there really be people who speak Latin fluently? If we loose that, how can we hope to keep the Latin Mass and all that comes with it (the Office, etc) alive? 


Since he's a Latinist who seems to like to make big points, maybe that's what he means. I don't know, but I certainly was saddened that he saw so little hope for Latin. I rededicated myself to learning the language after reading it. Maybe I'll prove him wrong.
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Viva Christo Rey!
Dilexisti
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2007, 09:22:PM »

In that case,
 
  1. He is a fatalist
  2. He is lost in the wilderness that is the conciliar Roman church
  3. Ergo, he has no clue about what he speaks, and
  4. He is a modernist.
 
 
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Paul
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Posts: 2,592


« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2007, 11:01:PM »

Quote from: darkwater
I have no clue where this priest stands on the 1962 Mass, but I was thinking today. Maybe what he means is that the idea of bringing back the Mass without a support for it in the form of people who can speak Latin is pointless? Looking at it that way, I agree with him. After the Pope's generation passes on, will there really be people who speak Latin fluently? If we loose that, how can we hope to keep the Latin Mass and all that comes with it (the Office, etc) alive?

Centuries of the faithful attended Mass without speaking Latin fluently. Not even the priest really needs to speak it fluently, since the prayers hardly change, and none of the readings are that difficult. It's better if the priest actually understands the language, but if he doesn't, he can still say the words while intending, generally, to pray to God.

And if the TLM is restored, then maybe the seminaries will start teaching Latin again. As things are now, there's no need for priests to know Latin, since they can pray the Mass and Office (at least those that actually pray the Office) in their own language.
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Revan
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 11:13:PM »

I really shouldn't attack this guy. For the past 33 years he has met nothing but defeat. Nothing but sadness watching the language of the Roman Church be lost despite his best efforts. And now, thanks to the Polish affair (which I am thinking was a plot by the opponents of the Holy Father to stop him from making any more traditional overtures - especially the indult) there will not be an indult so he has given up hope.

 

But on the bright side organizations like FSSP and SSPX (whom I have gained more respect for over the last few months) will continue to teach seminarians Latin so there will always be a portion of the Western Church that will keep her language.

 

edit: Paul above me makes some good points.

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winoblue1
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Location: Canada
Personality type: Sanguine, melancholic
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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2007, 02:13:AM »

Just one comment that merits repeating here:

The faithful's ability to speak or understand Latin is really a marginal and insignificant issue in analyzing the value of Latin in the liturgy and the life of the Church. In fact I would argue that it is precisely because it is not understood by most people that it should be retained in the liturgy and in the Church.

 

And this is why i object to this priest's opinions because he seems to want to advocate for the restoration of Latin for it's own sake (as a living language) which is not really an important task for the Church, Latin is only a tool which has served the Church exceptionally well for the purposes of unifying the liturgy, maintaining doctrinal clarity, and connecting the present with the past. He seems to not care for these functions, as shown by his attitude to the old mass and his negative remark on medievalism. So clearly he has another agenda that is not at all consistent with a truly catholic  perspective.

 

And one question:

Why are people so hung up on the issue of needing to understand Latin?

 

I fell in love with the Latin Mass even before I ever saw one, I just heard about it and looked at the pictures inside an old missal. It never occurred to me that it would be problematic spiritually or intellectually because I saw it as a way of uniting the faith, maintaining doctrine and connecting with the past, clearly more important objectives than whether i can understand it, besides I can always read a translation.... In this way it seems more about convenience for the audience than what is good for the Church itself.

 

I think that the issue of language in the liturgy is only relevant these days because we have bought the idea of the protestants that worship is primarily for us.... the mass and indeed all worship is for God Himself. It is worship not instruction and so we do not need to understand and hear every single syllable. If we are so curious we can read a missal, discuss it afterwards or read a book.

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Traditional Catholic seeking holiness.... seeking
darkwater
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Personality type: melancholic-choleric
Posts: 68



« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2007, 08:48:AM »

Quote from: winoblue1

Why are people so hung up on the issue of needing to understand Latin?


Well, I for one can't speak latin one bit. I know a couple of words from picking them up in English usage and have the Credo and Pater Noster memorized. You are correct that the Latin Mass is wonderful without anyone knowing Latin, but I think things would be so much richer if people actually did speak Latin to some level. After reading some translations of English works, he does have a point about reading people and not knowing Latin. For me, I'd love to see the full richness of the Church stay alive, and that seems to include Latin being spoken.
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Viva Christo Rey!
Marylou
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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2007, 10:59:AM »

We are about to commence our new 'home' school year so I have advertised in the local newspaper for a private tutor to teach Latin to me and the two teenagers. I should have done this years ago I know, but  I wonder if there is a Latin tutor out there.  Probably some very old rickety old soul who can't read the newspaper any more!

I wonder could Fish Eaters run a Latin tutorial course ?Idea

Any bright Latin scholars out there?
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DominusTecum
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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2007, 12:36:PM »

There was a latin tutorial of sorts going on for awhile, but it kind of died, or went off-board, or something like that.
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albert
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We're all broken.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2007, 08:58:PM »

Quote from:  Fr Foster
Fr. Foster said. "It is a useless mass and the whole mentality is stupid. "

I see, the Mass is useless and stupid.  So what does this useful smart man do?  He's proud to have translated into Latin a money machine's instructions.  But doesn't have enough time to translate the pope's words or other correspondences to newly appointed bishops.  Nuf Said, Albert Cipriani

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