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Author Topic: Is Archbishop Burke directing his Archdiocese towards tradition?  (Read 2725 times)
Ourladyofconsolation06
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« on: March 11, 2007, 07:07:PM »

I have a feeling the good Archbishop is trying to bring about the "reform of the reform" in the Archdiocese of St. Louis! There was the Solemn Mass celebrated in the Cathedral recently and come June, Arch. Burke will ordain 2 priests (I think) in the Tridentine rite in that same Cathedral. Then to cap it off, the Cathedrals website is undergoing transformations. http://www.cathedralstl.org/
(Note the picture of the High Altar set up for the Latin Mass!)
Lets pray other Bishops pick up on his lead.

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Padre_Pro
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 08:14:PM »

Well you see,  Archbishop Burke is very friendly with the ICKSP, and as a result he is somewhat traditionally minded.  The Solemn High Mass that you referred to was celebrated at the ICKSP church and the two priest that are to be ordained will be done so for the ICKSP.  You may say that he is very open to tradition, but I won't go as far to say that he wants his whole diocese to move in that direction.  If he elects to make changes in his diocese that eventually bring back the TLM then thanks be to God, but the Church is made up of more than just one diocese, and the crisis in the church will need many more bishops and the pope to rectify the issue than just Archbishop Burke.
 
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Ourladyofconsolation06
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 08:27:PM »

Quote
The Solemn High Mass that you referred to was celebrated at the ICKSP church


I assure you it took place in the Cathedral-Basilica of St. Louis. Here are some pictures and some video. It was the first TLM to offered inside its walls for 42 years.





Part I
Part II: Procession and Introit
Part III: Kyrie
Part IV: Gloria, Collect, Commemoration
Part V: Epistle
Part VI: Tract
Part VII: Gospel
Quote

Well you see,  Archbishop Burke is very friendly with the ICKSP, and as a result he is somewhat traditionally minded.

He also erected, in his diocese, a exclusive Tridentine rite religious community called the Canons Regular of The New Jerusalem. http://www.canonsregular.com/

Quote
You may say that he is very open to tradition, but I won't go as far to say that he wants his whole diocese to move in that direction. 


Lets hope so because it's starting to look that way!

Quote
If he elects to make changes in his diocese that eventually bring back the TLM then thanks be to God, but the Church is made up of more than just one diocese, and the crisis in the church will need many more bishops and the pope to rectify the issue than just Archbishop Burke.


Very true my friend.

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batteddy
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 09:12:PM »

Quote
He also erected, in his diocese, a exclusive Tridentine rite religious community called the Canons Regular of The New Jerusalem. http://www.canonsregular.com/ 

 

I visited them for a weekend in November with my parents, and then this January went down alone by train and stayed with them for a week!

 

I will probably enter this fall.

 

 

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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 09:32:PM »

Quote from: batteddy

I visited them for a weekend in November with my parents, and then this January went down alone by train and stayed with them for a week!

 

I will probably enter this fall.

 

 

Deo gratias!  I'll keep you in my prayers.

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Padre_Pro
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 09:48:PM »

Quote from: Ourladyofconsolation06
Quote
The Solemn High Mass that you referred to was celebrated at the ICKSP church


I assure you it took place in the Cathedral-Basilica of St. Louis. Here are some pictures and some video. It was the first TLM to offered inside its walls for 42 years.





Part I
Part II: Procession and Introit
Part III: Kyrie
Part IV: Gloria, Collect, Commemoration
Part V: Epistle
Part VI: Tract
Part VII: Gospel
Quote

Well you see,  Archbishop Burke is very friendly with the ICKSP, and as a result he is somewhat traditionally minded.

He also erected, in his diocese, a exclusive Tridentine rite religious community called the Canons Regular of The New Jerusalem. http://www.canonsregular.com/

Quote
You may say that he is very open to tradition, but I won't go as far to say that he wants his whole diocese to move in that direction.  


Lets hope so because it's starting to look that way!

Quote
If he elects to make changes in his diocese that eventually bring back the TLM then thanks be to God, but the Church is made up of more than just one diocese, and the crisis in the church will need many more bishops and the pope to rectify the issue than just Archbishop Burke.


Very true my friend.


It seems as though I stand corrected in saying that they celebrated Mass in the ICKSP church.  I have never heard of that order called the Canons Regular.  Where do they get their priests for the order and where are they formated?  I hope it is true that Archbishop Burke is transforming his diocese into traditional oasis.  I guess all that we can do is to pray for him and for the whole church that we will be delivered from this present crisis, but I guess that doesn't really need to be said.
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delorean81
Member

Posts: 61


« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 10:00:PM »

Quote


It seems as though I stand corrected in saying that they celebrated Mass in the ICKSP church.  I have never heard of that order called the Canons Regular.  Where do they get their priests for the order and where are they formated?  I hope it is true that Archbishop Burke is transforming his diocese into traditional oasis.  I guess all that we can do is to pray for him and for the whole church that we will be delivered from this present crisis, but I guess that doesn't really need to be said.

 

The Canons have one priest, the prior and last time I talked with them he had

3 novices, although I heard one of them recently went to the SSPX, im not sure how true it is. Dom Oppenheimer (sp?) was SSPX, then FSSP, then with the Norbertine fathers for a few years.

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batteddy
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 10:47:PM »

Quote
The Canons have one priest, the prior and last time I talked with them

 

True. He told me that they once had (at different times) another priest and even a deacon come and live with them aspiring to the community, but that these men left because "in middle-age their will was already too strong, and they could not obey." Which he could not understand because it is not as if they ask anything too hard there, they are very observant, but also personally laid back and flexible. 

 

Right now, he is their only priest and superior.

 

Quote
he had 3 novices, although I heard one of them recently went to the SSPX, im not sure how true it is.

 

Right now, their are two other men besides Father Oppenheimer. They are no longer novices, however, but Junior Proffessed.

 

The other young man left, by I did not hear it said that it was for the SSPX. Father mentioned him and just said that he thinks "that unlike the others [the priest and deacon] he had no trouble obeying, but I think he just got bored"...

 

Quote

Dom Oppenheimer (sp?) was SSPX, then FSSP, then with the Norbertine fathers for a few years.

 

Never heard about the SSPX part, though he did mention a friend at Econe, and has expressed sympathy for the SSPX in some newsletters (though also strong disapproval of their schism). One of the fraters told me that, "Dom Daniel was the first American ordained for the Fraternity of St. Peter"

 

The Norbertine Canons at the Abbey of St. Michael in Orange County California are where he did his judicial novitiate so that he could start his own order. He was originally planning an order of Clerks Regular, but upon spending some time with the Canons of St. Michael, decided to make his order more choir-oriented, more liturgically monastic. But he was never really planning to stay their forever, it was his required judicial novitiate.

 

Quote
I have never heard of that order called the Canons Regular.
 

 

Canons Regular are a whole SUBTYPE of religious life, similar to the categories Monastic, Military, Mendicant, Clerk Regular etc. There are many orders of Canons Regular. Most use the Rule of St. Augustine, as do the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem.

 

Here is a Catholic Encyclopedia article on Canons and Canonesses Regular:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03288a.htm

 

Quote
and where are they formated? 

 

They have a little classroom set up in their house. Various professors and tutors come to their house everyday for a few a hours, although one day we drove to a [retired] professor's house for history of western philosophy, instead of him coming to us. I think a lot come from the Catholic universities in the area, though their latin teacher is a very young man who lives right down the road. They have set up what they call their "Studium Augustinianum" and I believe the program and curriculum is accredited through one of the Roman universities. All the professors are devout Catholics, sympathetic to traditionalism, and they start and end every session kneeling with latin prayers etc...They invite other people to participate in the program if they wish, but they must be able to follow the broader spiritual regimen of the canons even if they do not aspire to the community (none do so that I know of).

 

They have a nice little chapel built in the old garage of the house, and beautiful choir stalls (thus far of capacity 6) built by the clearcreek benedictines. They have a loyal little parish group, many who homeschool their many children (i remember one little girl came to mass on Epiphany dressed as a carmelite nun...), and say Sunday mass at the church of the Passionist Nun's Cloister because there is not enough room at their chapel. The nuns are ministered to by novus ordo priests throughout the week...but all of them always also show up (behind the bars of the cloister grate) for the Tridentine High Mass each Sunday and seem to thirst for it.

 

I remember on the last day I was there, a Saturday, the Feast of the Epiphany, they had a party for the homeschool boys (who don't have many other peers mind you) and many of the fathers were also there for choir practice.

 

The parish seems to be a nice group (at least as I've met at the coffee after mass and things like this choir practice). But I also heard Father grumble about how they don't seem to want to participate beyond Sunday Mass. The canons would like to have more active apostolate too...but the parish is apparently very apathetic, and being appeased with a convenient Sunday Mass...seem to live in their own isolationist home-school families, not being very personal or fraternal. He is upset that they didn't seem to want the canons to run a catechism class for adults or children, don't seem to want to participate in charitable works, organize pilgrimages etc...just come on Sundays, and then most leave without talking to anyone else...there is only a small community that comes to the coffee or has any fraternal personal contact with anyone (besides sitting next to them at mass, not making eye contact, lol).


One of the complaints they have about a lot of other traditionalists (a circle of which they, of all people, said "stay away from most of them, don't get too involved in that paranoid subculture" LOL!) is that they seem to simply be very isolated, very solipsistic. As I've said before, trads have their own little fantasy world, and if they can get the tridentine mass and sacraments and sacramentals they are so militant about...don't seem too interested in participating in a broader fraternal movement. A very individualistic protestant mentality and spirituality; church-shop for a service you like, and then make religion into an individualistic sort of hobby done alone at home. The Catholic Church is a society for crying out loud! The perfect society! And yet here a lot of trads online are, complaining and writing dark conspiracy theories on blogs and forums, maybe going to a schismatic mass on sundays, but otherwise just saying their prayers at home, brooding, and living in their own bitter paranoid little world. It's a shame.

 

The CRNJ started in Lacrosse, archbishop Burke's old diocese. But they lived in an apartment above the diocesan offices, and said there was not much interest in the old rite there. So when Burke got promoted to St. Louis, they quickly followed. They live in a little house on a hill, once occupied by nuns, with a large 25-acre prarie property surrounding donated by the diocese. The "Linda Vista Catholic School" is at the bottom of the hill...which they seem to have a disdain for...as father said to me, "What kind of name is that for a Catholic School!? It should be Saint something-or-other's..." They also dislike its "wagon wheel" architectural design. The property itself, with the prarie and groves of trees is nice enough (we trekked around it playing a Three Kings scavenger hunt with the homeschool boys), but it is right off a road that has become busier and busier as urban-sprawlish subdivisions have creeped in. We usually took a walk at night through the neighborhood across the street.

 

Father told me, "we hopefully won't always be at this location," and expressed a desire to go somewhere where A) there is a greater population with more interest in the old liturgy, B) they can have a more tranquil property, close to nature, with the solitude of more trees blocking the sight of roads etc (they think people need to return to a connection with the Land), C) where they can build their own monastery with its own church and that looks more like a Priory (right now...it looks just like a suburban house except for the chapel where the garage should be...) As a native, I of course am biased towards the Chicagoland area (my family would be close, I know the area, it has interest in traditionalism, Cardinal George has been favorable towards it, it has lots of trees and pseudo-isolated beautiful wilderness areas in many of the suburbs), but I won't push that too willfully...besides, they might not move for years. But pray for them, please.

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HMiS
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Posts: 6,172



« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 05:42:AM »

Since when is taking "religious vows" of a transsexual, gender mutilated and artificially surgeoned man in a Community of Religious Sisters, an act of "tradition"?

 

I do not want to judge bp. Burke, but it seems he wrong on some issues. Grave issues. Things are not merely about choreography of the Novus Ordo liturgy or about granting indults to the FSSP....

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
batteddy
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 04:19:PM »

Quote
I agree with many of the comments here, and it is something that I have noticed myself (I attended a TLM parish for 2-1/2 years before moving). But I would also caution Father to not underestimate the enormous burden that homeschooling imposes upon families, especially the mothers. These mothers, especially those with many little ones, are often doing all they can just to keep their heads above water with laundry and getting everyone fed, much less volunteering at the local soup kitchen or organizing pilgrimmages.

 

Also, if you live in an area (like much of the U.S.) where one must drive to get to mass, imagine the logistics of trying to get five children under the age of 8, plus nursing baby, into the van and to the church on time. Often Sunday mass is all a family is up to, and by the time it's over everyone's exhausted, cranky and needing naps.

 

What I'm basically trying to say is that if yours is a community made up primarily of families with young children, you won't see much involvement in areas outside of Sunday mass because all of their energy is going to raising those little ones. It's when the children become older and there are no more babies coming that energy can then be directed outward into other parish activities.

 

 

I know that is true. But sadly, the homeschool families are the ones with the MOST dedication, the ones who participate the MOST from what I can tell. Their fathers are all in the choir, the boys come parties and the summer camp they run, the mothers are very helpful with food and such.

 

It is the others...the seemingly antisocial middle-aged men, and scowling childless couples who from what I can tell filled in the Church on Sundays...and left without a word afterwords while the homeschool families at least came to the coffee and talked etc...

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