Is there a Purgatory

[nicollette]

I found this clip advertised after the "That Catholic Show".  At first I thought this was a catholic priest but it only takes a couple of seconds to realize he's not.



The pastor is from www.messiahseattle.org  None of the other clips seemed so anti-catholic but I've not watched them all either.  Just thought it was interesting.  He's talk on purgatory sounds very similar to my dh's father's explanation.  :rolleyes:


P.S.  The "close/closed communion" video was interesting.  

[Marty]

Me thinks that one day he'd wished he believed in purgatory....
The poor sod.
I'll pray that the holy souls in Purgatory will help him out.
Such a narrow view on Gods Justice, sad :(

[Zan]

Purgatory? Never heard of it.

Anyways I hate it when protestants wear Catholic garb.... or is it Catholic priests wearing protestant garb? Weren't clergy suits developed by the Church of England?

[Dilexisti]

"It's not in the Bible, so there is no Purgatory."  Period.  Just like that, this fellow dismisses scriptural Truth.  That's the problem with the free and personal interpretation (license) that Protestantism teaches (condemned in 2 Peter 3:16), as leading to one's own destruction).   I think he said that the RC theology on Purgatory is based solely on the book of Maccabees, which is one of the seven books discarded by the Protestants.  Looks like he hasn't read the whole Bible, because there are at least twelve references, aside from Maccabees, on Purgatory.  Of course the term "Purgatory" is not mentioned, but neither is the "Trinity" or the "Incarnation" and a host of other Christian truths accepted by Protestants (which are found only in Sacred Tradition).

To begin, the Book of the Apocalypse (21:27) cautions sternly that nothing defiled (unclean) can enter Heaven.

Some of the verses this "pastor" needs to look up:

Lk 12:59;
1 Cor 3:15;
1 Pet 1:7;
Mt 5:25-26 thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32   (the sin that cannot be forgiven in the world to come).
1 Pet 3:19  
Rev 21:27  
Heb 12:23                                
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46                                  
2 Tim 1:15-18
1 Jn 5:14-17 ( a sin which is not unto death (venial) and a sin that is unto death (Mortal)

It is unfortunate that all Protestants save none believe that they have been justified by the merits of Christ and their sins completely blotted out that they cannot sin anymore and thus merit heaven.  

[Dilexisti]

Purgatory? Never heard of it.

The Orthodox reject Purgatory, as well as the Immaculate Conception (you probably haven't heard of it either).  What then do the Orthodox believe once a person dies?  Heaven or Hell?

By the way, what does "          Orthodox in communion with the Church of Rome" mean?  If you are in communion with Rome, you are Catholic -- albeit your may belong to the Eastern or Oriental rites, as Roman Catholics belong to the Western or Latin rite.  Ergo, you are no longer "Orthodox."  

[Zan]

Purgatory? Never heard of it.

The Orthodox reject Purgatory, as well as the Immaculate Conception (you probably haven't heard of it either).  What then do the Orthodox believe once a person dies?  Heaven or Hell?

We have never been taught purgatory, it is not in our catechisms. The Union of Brest officially says that we don't have to accept the Roman Catholic definition of Purgatory. This is from east2west.com and it can explain it better than I could:

"In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.

The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points. In practice, we routinely celebrate Divine Liturgies for the dead, and offer numerous prayers on their behalf. We would not do so if we did not agree with the above two dogmatic points.

But again, we do not use the word "Purgatory" for two reasons. First, it is a Latin word first used in the Medieval West, and we use Greek words to describe our theology. Second, the word "Purgatory" still carries specific Medieval baggage that we aren't comfortable with.

It is noteworthy that my own Byzantine Catholic Church has never been required to use the word Purgatory. Our act of reunion with Rome, "The Treaty of Brest," which was formally accepted by Pope Clement VIII, does not require us to accept the Western understanding of Purgatory.

Article V of the Treaty of Brest states "We shall not debate about purgatory..." implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls "Purgatory."

In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis." This refers to the process of deification, in which the remnants of our humans nature are transformed, and we come to share in the divine life of the Trinity. Rather than seeing this as a place to "sit and suffer," the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy. "

Immaculate Conception (you probably haven't heard of it either)

I have. And I happen to believe in it, as all Catholics are required to.

By the way, what does " Orthodox in communion with the Church of Rome" mean?  If you are in communion with Rome, you are Catholic -- albeit your may belong to the Eastern or Oriental rites, as Roman Catholics belong to the Western or Latin rite.  Ergo, you are no longer "Orthodox."

I don't belong to the any "Eastern rite", I belong to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. The UGCC happens to use the Byzantine rite and it just so happens to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church and a member of the Catholic Church. I use "Orthodox in communion with the Church of Rome" mainly as a statement to Eastern Orthodox, who rather dislike the term. I find it curious why you are so offended by it.

Also "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is a term sometimes used in the Byzantine world to describe those Catholics who are Eastern theologically and spiritually. In contrast I have seen "Latins who wear funny clothes" used to describe those Eastern Catholics who are Roman Catholic in thinking and practice.

[Robb]

What ever happened to the toll houses and the ladder of divine ascent?  Do only Slavic Orthodox believe in them or do the Greeks as well?

[Robb]

Purgatory? Never heard of it.

The Orthodox reject Purgatory, as well as the Immaculate Conception (you probably haven't heard of it either).  What then do the Orthodox believe once a person dies?  Heaven or Hell?

We have never been taught purgatory, it is not in our catechisms. The Union of Brest officially says that we don't have to accept the Roman Catholic definition of Purgatory. This is from east2west.com and it can explain it better than I could:

Then why did the Greek Catholic Church believe in Purgatory before Vatican II?  I remember reading in an old catechism "Our Heavenly Bread" that the Greek Catholics believe in purgatory as well as indulgences.

You must be careful of what is happening to the Eastren Rites since the council.  Many are being infiltrated by pro- Orthodox fanatics who want to tear them away from the true Church of Rome. 

Also "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is a term sometimes used in the Byzantine world to describe those Catholics who are Eastern theologically and spiritually. In contrast I have seen "Latins who wear funny clothes" used to describe those Eastern Catholics who are Roman Catholic in thinking and practice.


A Catholic of any rite must submit to the supreme jurisdiction and authority of the Roman Pontiff.  They are not permitted to exist as a separate autonomous body with "ties" to the Holy See.  What does "in communion with" imply anyway?  All being in communion (In Orthodoxy) means is that one Church recognizes another as legitimate Church and the faithful of that Church may Commune in the other if they wish.  Is that the kind of relationship the Eastern Churches want with Rome, like Constantinople with Antioch?

Bob

[Zan]

What ever happened to the toll houses and the ladder of divine ascent?  Do only Slavic Orthodox believe in them or do the Greeks as well?

I think its more of a Slavic/Russian thing. I personally do not adhere to it (no Catholic should) but it sounds pretty cool. Most Eastern Orthodox consider it only to be theory but I think the priests in more traditional groups, like ROCOR, treat as fact for the most part (I'm not too sure though, perhaps one who more familiar with the ROCOR could clarify).

For those not familiar here is a link that discusses toll houses:
 
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm

[Zan]

Then why did the Greek Catholic Church believe in Purgatory before Vatican II?  I remember reading in an old catechism "Our Heavenly Bread" that the Greek Catholics believe in purgatory as well as indulgences.

Who ever said we never believed in the concept of "purgatory"?

In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.

The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points. In practice, we routinely celebrate Divine Liturgies for the dead, and offer numerous prayers on their behalf. We would not do so if we did not agree with the above two dogmatic points.

The Union of Brest (which was pre-vatican 2) says we don't have to debate with the Roman Church concerning differences over "Purgatory". The catechism you refer to (if it was Eastern Catholic in origin) was probably written by the same people who removed our Iconostases and inserted stations of the cross in our churches in an attempt to be more "Catholic". 

You must be careful of what is happening to the Eastren Rites since the council.  Many are being infiltrated by pro- Orthodox fanatics who want to tear them away from the true Church of Rome. 

Uh, if my priest or I wanted to leave the Catholic Church we would just join the Ukrainian Orthodox two blocks down the road.
Could you provide sources to prove your theory?

A Catholic of any rite must submit to the supreme jurisdiction and authority of the Roman Pontiff. 

Uh, I dont?!? That's news to me!

And I do not belong to any "rite" - neither do you. I belong to the Catholic Church (the UGCC to be specific).

They are not permitted to exist as a separate autonomous body with "ties" to the Holy See. 

Our hierarchy is in full communion with the Vicar of Christ and accept his universal jurisdiction. We are autonomous though. We elect our own bishops and patriarchs.

When an Eastern Catholic Patriarch is elected, the first thing he dose is visits the Pope and announces that he and his Church (whether it be Melkite, Coptic, Syriac or Chaeldean) are in full communion with him.

What does "in communion with" imply anyway?  All being in communion (In Orthodoxy) means is that one Church recognizes another as legitimate Church and the faithful of that Church may Commune in the other if they wish.

That is our understanding also. My Church recognizes the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church to be a true particular Church of the Catholic Church. Therefore I can take communion at a Melkite parish. My Church also recognizes the Roman Catholic Church to be a true particular Church of the Catholic Church (surprise, surprise) so I can take communion at a Roman mass.

Is that the kind of relationship the Eastern Churches want with Rome, like Constantinople with Antioch?

The Patriarch of Constantinople dose not claim to have universal jurisdiction and he dose not claim to be the Vicar of Christ. The Church of Antioch agrees with the Patriarch of Constantinople on these two points.

The Pope of Rome claims to have universal jurisdiction and claims to be the Vicar of Christ. The Eastern Catholic Churches (whether they be Ukrainian, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean, Coptic, Syriac, Melkite, Ruthenian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Ethiopian, or any of the others) agree with him and believe him on these two points.