Surgery for Muslim Women

[Cordyceps]

Mommie2Boys, HappyWife, and Spooky7272 and company…

It is a well-know fact, told to every counselor, clinical physiologist, investigator, detective, lawyer, etc. that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior (Ouellette and Wood, 1998). It should be told to everybody as well.

In fact, the now-Catholic Steven Wood, the founder of St. Josephs Promise keepers states in his book about finding an marrying your wife, “As the president of a non-profit organization, I’ve had to learn an important principle for good hiring that you can use in choosing a wife as well. I’ve found that in ninety-nine percent of employment decisions, ‘What you see is what you get (WYSIWYG).’” He continues, “I’ve had to curb my personal projections about what a person might do, and instead carefully observe what he was actually doing” (Wood, 2003, p. 78).

I had to pass a background check with a polygraph test to get my job. They asked anything, and if I did anything in my past that was unfitting (smoke marijuana for example), I would not have received the job. This is a rational approach to marriage.

While nobody is perfect, each person’s past should be considered carefully before marriage with the assumption that people will largely remain the same once they have reached maturity. People can change, but this is remarkable because it is rare. God’s Grace in helping use become good would be completely unremarkable if WYSIWYG was not true.

Furthermore, the fact that God endures our WYSIWYG natures and died for us on a cross to give us a chance at overcoming it is the single reason why Christianity is so awesome.

References (something that should be done more at this forum):

Ouellette, J. and Wood, W. (1998) Habit and intention in everyday life: The multiple processes by which past behavior predicts future behavior. Psychological Bulletin 124, 54–74

Wood, S. (2003) The ABCs of Choosing a Good Wife. Port Charlotte, FL. Family Life Center Publications.

[ErinIsNice]

Well Cordyceps, I hope you have never made any mistakes then, because shouldn't women use past actions to predict future behavior as well?

How does that quote go about forgiving others 70 times 7 times or something?

[miss_fluffy]

Let me take a hypothetical here.  Say a young man, a virgin, meets a wonderful young woman, falls in love with her, everything is going swell.  She then confesses to him that she has a past, that she is no longer a virgin due to a sinful past, but has completely changed her ways.

Now it is true, that this may frustrate the man to a great degree.  It may even cause him to leave this young woman behind, and seek love elsewhere.  But that is due to a weakness on his part, not hers. 

It is a strong tendency for men to have this type of weakness.  Even if they are not virgins, they would prefer to wed a virgin, or at least a woman who hasn't "been around the block" as much as he has.  Men can be downright obsessive about the sexual sins their object of love has committed in the past.  I'm not saying all men are, but many, I dare say most are.

This tendency needs to be seen as what it is, an inability on the part of the man to forgive past indiscretions, not that the woman is somehow less than good.  For if her sins have been forgiven, and she has succeeded in avoiding the same sin for some time, she has fought the good fight and is winning the battle. 

[ErinIsNice]

Also, Matthew 6 14
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[Traditionalist]

I, myself, and many others are living proof that this is not true. It's called "conversion".
Conversion:

2.	change in character, form, or function.

 

3.	spiritual change from sinfulness to righteousness.

Amen.

Cordyceps:  So, are you saying you would not trust a young woman simply because she is not a virgin?  Are you assuming she will cheat on you, or what?  It seems a foolish conclusion to jump to, that you will be cheated on simply because she is not a virgin.

People make mistakes.  Some people make big mistakes.  But that does not mean that, through the grace and mercy of God, one cannot turn away from those sins and toward the Lord.  Does it follow that St Augustine, because he lived with a mistress, would do the same after his conversion?  One can read his Confessions and see the measure of his repentance.

[Sophia]

the past is the best indication of the future??

I'm not sure why everyone has their knickers in a twist over this one.  It's true.  Both virtue and vice are habits, and even though a person may have a total conversion of the heart and may confess those sins, the dispositions are still there, and must be fought with for the rest of one's life.  

That of course does not make it just for someone to go looking down their nose at a person who has a past, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that.   When considering a person as a potential spouse, his entire character must be thoroughly examined.  That would include all of his habits and dispositions.  People do not wake up out of the blue one day and decide to commit a mortal sin.  There are many steps that lead up to it, and all along the way certain habits are being formed.  It is these habits that a potential spouse must live with.  It is the specter of the person's past sins that may continually haunt family life.  That isn't to say that such a person is a sinner or hasn't undertaken to drive out concupiscence with great penance, but just that such a person may not be a suitable spouse.  Then again they may be wonderful spouses, but that's why anyone who wants to get married must do so with their eyes wide open.   

[Sophia]

Does it follow that St Augustine, because he lived with a mistress, would do the same after his conversion?  One can read his Confessions and see the measure of his repentance.

Actually, he lived a life of celibacy after his conversion.  It is interesting to note that great sinners who become great saints, usually live lives of celibacy afterward.  I liken it to the case of the alcoholic who knows that he cannot touch a drop of alcohol after he goes dry.

[Cordyceps]

Miss Fluffy,

I would agree that a man that would leave a woman for the reason you describe is foolish, but it is his choice to do so. It sounds more like you are advocating for the woman rather than trying to accept the situation for what it is. Some men may prefer blondes, others virgins. Both traits are not entirety important to a happy marriage objectively, but they could mean the world to a certain individual.

Women seem to prefer certain (usually silly) traits in men. Every time I hear, “he has wonderful eyes” I roll my eyes. What is important is that his eyes work! To me, “having wonderful eyes” is much more silly than virginity, which is something chosen by a person, and is indicative of their future behavior because of what I stated before. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.

Erin is Nice,

You are confusing forgiveness with foolishness. I am capable of completely forgiving somebody for lapsing in various ways (sexually, with drugs, etc.), but I would not be foolishly surprised when they do lapse. We make decisions in our life based upon the information we have at hand. Some people make better decisions than others, usually because they carefully reason, equate, and investigate. If we do not want to be miserable, we chose options that will be good for us. For example, I may choose to break-up with a non-virgin because I suspect she will cheat again. Or maybe I’ll do it because secretly I will always be jealous. These may not be good reasons, but they are reasons non-the-less and only a fool would ignore them.

Let me give an example. Let’s say your friend falls asleep easily, even when it is important for her not to fall asleep like when she is baby-sitting a danger-inclined toddler. Let’s say that this friend lapses and falls asleep when you put her in charge of your toddler. Fortunately nothing bad happens, and you forgive her. You do not hold a grudge and hope this person never lapses again. You may even pray for them never to lapse again. But would you be foolish enough to allow them to take care of your toddler again?

If you are a fool, you would allow them to take care of your toddler again, and you would suffer the consequences of that person’s likely lapse. Perhaps your toddler has now been horribly scarred by an injury. Perhaps they drank Drano and died.

If you were forgiving, you would encourage the person, pray for them, and hope they would get better, but until they demonstrated that they no longer had the problem, you would not allow them to care for your toddler.

Here is another example that is a bit more extreme and unrealistic.

Let’s say a woman is horrifically raped and severely beaten. She lives in a bad neighborhood, never carried a weapon, and her known-sex-offender neighbor perpetrated this crime. After she healed being the good, smarter Catholic she is, she forgave her attacker and prayed for him to recover from this problem. She may even help him recover by participating in psychological rehabilitation programs. But being smart she now carries a concealed weapon and is wary of strange men in alleys. She has forgiven, but she knows the risks and is prepared for them.

[ErinIsNice]

Why are you equating pre-marital sex with infidelity?  A person may not be a virgin, but that does not mean they were not being monogamous.

If a person had a history of being unfaithful I can see being wary, but loss of virginity and cheating have nothing to do with one another.

[Sophia]

If a person had a history of being unfaithful I can see being wary, but loss of virginity and cheating have nothing to do with one another

They could, actually be related.  If the person fornicated because they have little self control, then they may have little self control when it comes to the temptation of cheating.