Trads occupy church in France

[Tradglad]

Dilexisi..
     Probably not possible. A private chapel built by private person is one thing ( they are at the disposal of the individual to sell or will to another) Diocesan property is another. Even if it were possible to stage a take over, the diocese would eventually win out. In the short term, the diocese would eventually have them evicted or removed. In the long term, the diocese would win in an expensive court battle. The best you could hope and pray for is some sort of compromise between the Faithful. I recent saw an article in the SF Chronicle about the loss of one of the oldest churches in the city ( I think it became a art center). Also there was a recent case in New York. Both cases were over the closing of parishes because of money (Not the Mass). I posted the links below on the St Brigid story. It was three parts. It is very interesting and very sad.

1) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/25/MNGRSKRH2E223.DTL&hw=catholic+church+closure&sn=003&sc=759

2) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/26/MNGA5OQR921.DTL&hw=catholic+church+closure&sn=001&sc=1000

3) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/27/MNGS9OR1K21.DTL&hw=catholic+church+closure&sn=002&sc=875

[AndreasAngelopolitanus]

If I'm not mistaken (correct me), the Chapel in Huntington Beach (CA), Our Lady Star of Sea, was privately owned, and when Fr. Johnson (RIP) became ill and could not go on saying the TLM, the Chapel was taken over by the diocese of Orange. This was situation where the parishioners could have occupied it but they were kicked out.

I think you're getting your chapel names mixed-up.  In Huntington Beach, the name is St. Mary's by the Sea.  Monsignor Donohue's (+RIP+) chapel (now SSPX) in San Pedro is called Maria Stella Maris; the Stella Maris translates into English as "Star of the Sea."

Nevertheless, I've read that the Diocese was planning on selling small church... way back when... before Fr. Johnson's arrival.  Perhaps it was privately owned when built back in the 1920s?  But I can't substantiate a Diocesan "take-over" of the property circa 2004.  Can you? 

I know of three other privately owned Chapels, one which the SSPX took over when the Independent priest who built (with the help of Mel Gibson, who is building a chapel in Agoura, CA, and another in Texas) and owned it, "willed" it to SSPX. As for the other two, it remains to be seen if the dioceses where they arelocated will be taken over by the local hierarchy.

The SSPX got 2 (or "both," if you will) of Monsignor Donohue's chapels: Maria Stella Maris (as I mentioned above) and Our Lady of the Angels in Arcadia, CA.

[Cupertino]

Agnus Dei and Dilexisti are correct.  The vast majority of churches are owned by dioceses and a few by religious orders.The issue with a church take over here would be legal. Eventually the secular authorities would be brought in to settle the matter in favor of the property owner (the Bishop.) No court battle would be necessary in most cases because it would be easy to prove that those taking over would not have title to the property.  

It would be interesting to know why the privately owned chapel in Huntington Beach reverted to the Diocese of Orange, CA.  Perhaps they had property rights. Was there a will, or did the owner of the chapel have heirs? If not the battle between a diocese and a group of traditionalists on a disputed church property would make for an interesting legal case. My guess, without looking into it at all, is that a court would tend to find in favor of the diocese, but it would not be a foregone conclusion. 

The situation in France is different, which is great for them.  At least we can still vote with our feet here.

[Dilexisti]

If I'm not mistaken (correct me), the Chapel in Huntington Beach (CA), Our Lady Star of Sea, was privately owned, and when Fr. Johnson (RIP) became ill and could not go on saying the TLM, the Chapel was taken over by the diocese of Orange. This was situation where the parishioners could have occupied it but they were kicked out.

I think you're getting your chapel names mixed-up.  In Huntington Beach, the name is St. Mary's by the Sea.  Monsignor Donohue's (+RIP+) chapel (now SSPX) in San Pedro is called Maria Stella Maris; the Stella Maris translates into English as "Star of the Sea."

Yes, you're right.  Stella Maris in San Pedro (which Apb. Lefebvre blessed and consecrated along with the chapel in Arcadia sometime in the 80's) is a Sunday-only mission chapel ever since I can recall.  I don't know if Fr. Ward or somebody else says Mass there daily.

Nevertheless, I've read that the Diocese was planning on selling small church... way back when... before Fr. Johnson's arrival.  Perhaps it was privately owned when built back in the 1920s?  But I can't substantiate a Diocesan "take-over" of the property circa 2004.  Can you?  

I have no records of that or have read anywhere that's it's privately owned, but the takeover and the intention to sell is nothing more than to get more funds to pay for the pedophile lawsuits or recover the costs of the lawsuits against the diocese.

I know of three other privately owned Chapels, one which the SSPX took over when the Independent priest who built (with the help of Mel Gibson, who is building a chapel in Agoura, CA, and another in Texas) and owned it, "willed" it to SSPX. As for the other two, it remains to be seen if the dioceses where they are located will be taken over by the local hierarchy.

The SSPX got 2 (or "both," if you will) of Monsignor Donohue's chapels: Maria Stella Maris (as I mentioned above) and Our Lady of the Angels in Arcadia, CA.

[/QUOTE]

Well not without a "fight."  Fr. Berry, formerly of the SSPX, put a claim that Mons. Donohue willed the chapel to him, because he had been assisting there, but actually the Monsignor did not like Fr. Berry's sedevacantist ideas (esp. from the pulpit) and Fr. Paul Tague, SSPX, took over.  There was a lawsuit on this and then an election among the congregation (I was there) to vote who we liked the chapel to go to:  Fr. Berry or the SSPX.  The SSPX won.

[AndreasAngelopolitanus]

Yes, you're right. Stella Maris in San Pedro (which Apb. Lefebvre blessed and consecrated along with the chapel in Arcadia sometime in the 80's) is a Sunday-only mission chapel ever since I can recall. I don't know if Fr. Ward or somebody else says Mass there daily.

Somebody else; but not daily.
Relevance? (of it being a Sunday-only mission chapel)



I apologize, but I can't follow you...
First you said:

If I'm not mistaken (correct me), the Chapel in Huntington Beach (CA), Our Lady Star of Sea, was privately owned, and when Fr. Johnson (RIP) became ill and could not go on saying the TLM, the Chapel was taken over by the diocese of Orange.

Now today, it's:

I have no records of that or have read anywhere that's it's privately owned, but the takeover and the intention to sell is nothing more than to get more funds to pay for the pedophile lawsuits or recover the costs of the lawsuits against the diocese.

It seems you've gone from thinking it was a privately-owned chapel--to a chapel that was never privately-owned--in just two days. 

Well not without a "fight." Fr. Berry, formerly of the SSPX, put a claim that Mons. Donohue willed the chapel to him, because he had been assisting there, but actually the Monsignor did not like Fr. Berry's sedevacantist ideas (esp. from the pulpit) and Fr. Paul Tague, SSPX, took over. There was a lawsuit on this and then an election among the congregation (I was there) to vote who we liked the chapel to go to: Fr. Berry or the SSPX. The SSPX won.

Yawwwnnn... me too.

[Dilexisti]

I apologize, but I can't follow you...
First you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilexisti
If I'm not mistaken (correct me), the Chapel in Huntington Beach (CA), Our Lady Star of Sea, was privately owned, and when Fr. Johnson (RIP) became ill and could not go on saying the TLM, the Chapel was taken over by the diocese of Orange.

Now today, it's:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilexisti
I have no records of that or have read anywhere that's it's privately owned, but the takeover and the intention to sell is nothing more than to get more funds to pay for the pedophile lawsuits or recover the costs of the lawsuits against the diocese.

It seems you've gone from thinking it was a privately-owned chapel--to a chapel that was never privately-owned--in just two days.  

I apologize too.  But it's simple.  Let me refresh.  I said "correct me if I am mistaken."   I have a bunch of clippings (links) on this Bp. Tod Brown-Fr. Tran-St. Mary by the Sea-Orange County affair and somewhere in these mess there was one declaratory sentence that said the chapel was built in 1923.  Now who knows who has the title to the property (need to check Orange County realty records).   I should have checked my notes first before jumping into the keyboard.  We all do that most of the time, or some of us do that all the time:  Leap before looking..    I hope you didn't lose any sleep over this little blooper, boner, or boo-boo.

As an aside, I wonder if we need to be very careful when we post:  parse the sentences, check and double check the sources, make certain what we say sounds traditional, and analyze if what is being said is a logical thought, before pressing that "Post Message" button.