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Author Topic: Words of Pope Paul VI...  (Read 898 times)
Catholicmilkman
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« on: June 21, 2007, 01:27:AM »

When and where did Paul VI say "The [new] rite ... by itself is NOT a dogmatic definition ..." and what would it mean?

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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2007, 01:28:AM »

I've never heard that, but if said I would be interested in those questions being answered as well.

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PeteC
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Posts: 1,043


« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2007, 02:57:AM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman

When and where did Paul VI say "The [new] rite ... by itself is NOT a dogmatic definition ..." and what would it mean?


No. 11.
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SemperTraditio
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Posts: 559



« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2007, 03:27:AM »

This means IMHO that the Pope didn't engage his infallibility in the promulgation of the NO.

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Smile

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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 03:55:AM »

Quote from: ondrasekxy

My understanding of what the Pope said is that any rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition, not just the new one.

Upon reading the actual document, I have the same understanding.

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Cupertino
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 04:40:AM »

Quote from: SemperTraditio

This means IMHO that the Pope didn't engage his infallibility in the promulgation of the NO.



I hope you're right, but I don't think that's the case, this is the context of the words stating the rite is not a "dogmatic definition".

Paul VI's words:

Quote
They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, lex orandi and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.

11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action  

What Paul VI is saying is that a rite is not a definition of dogma, but a liturgical expression of worship. I'm sure he was anticipating the criticism that the rite would sustain for the ambiguity with which it abounds. These words are true, but how does it justify anything?

This audience is just an amazing collection of non sequiturs.  When juxtaposed with the reality of the NO and the results it spawned, it is utterly stunning. It saddens me that it was uttered by a Supreme Pontiff.
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Dilexisti
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 09:45:AM »

Quote from: Cupertino
Quote from: SemperTraditio

This means IMHO that the Pope didn't engage his infallibility in the promulgation of the NO.



I hope you're right, but I don't think that's the case, this is the context of the words stating the rite is not a "dogmatic definition".

Paul VI's words:

Quote
They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, lex orandi and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.

11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action  
What Paul VI is saying is that a rite is not a definition of dogma, but a liturgical expression of worship. I'm sure he was anticipating the criticism that the rite would sustain for the ambiguity with which it abounds. These words are true, but how does it justify anything?

This audience is just an amazing collection of non sequiturs.  When juxtaposed with the reality of the NO and the results it spawned, it is utterly stunning. It saddens me that it was uttered by a Supreme Pontiff.

This is by far the best explanation and comment I have read on this issue.  Thanks Cupertino!  I'll keep this in mind.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 03:19:PM »

Quote from: Cupertino
Paul VI's words:

Quote
They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, lex orandi and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.

11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action 
Cupertino, what document is this from exactly?
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Cupertino
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 03:48:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman

Cupertino, what document is this from exactly?


Hi Milkman.  The document is Paul VI's Address to a General Audience of November 19, 1965. Here's a link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6601119.HTM

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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 11:45:PM »

Thanks, Cupertino.
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