St. Thomas More

[aquinas138]

I was trying to decide when St. Thomas More's feast would be celebrated on the Traditional Calendar.  My first guess was July 6, which is the day he is listed in the Martyrology, but then I got thinking.  At least in the 1962 calendar, he is celebrated with St. John Fisher on July 9 in all the dioceses of England and Wales.  Which is more appropriate?

As a side question, if your diocesan patron shares his feast day with another saint, how is this handled?

[Paul]

If you have a Mass or Office for him on July 9, I'd pick that date. There's plenty of saints whose feasts are moved because their dates of death are occupied.

The patron of your diocese is a Double of the I Class, so it would take precedence over any lesser feast on that day, with the other feast commemorated, transferred, or omitted, according to the Rubrics. If, however, another feast would perpetually take precedence over the patron's feast, it would be transferred to the next day which does not exclude Doubles of the I Class.

Lower-ranking feasts particular to some nation, diocese, order, institute, or church, if perpetually impeded in the entire nation, diocese, order, institute, or church, are moved to the next free day. If only impeded in certain places but not others, the feast is commemorated or omitted, according to the Rubrics.

If your question is slightly different - if the Mass and Office is for two saints (Ss. John Fisher and Thomas More, or Ss. Perpetua and Felicity, or Ss. Simon and Jude), where only one is the patron, the feast of both is kept as usual, but as a Double of the I Class, unless there's a proper Mass and Office for that diocese with only the one saint.

 

Title V. On the perpetual occurrence of Feasts and their reposition

 

    1. Feasts of Double rite whether greater or lesser or Semidouble of the universal Church, whether fixed or mobile, if anywhere they are perpetually impeded, are not replaced, but commemorated or omitted on its day, as is said in Title VII On Commemorations. Likewise it is kept of Feasts of some Nation, or Diocese, or Order, or Institute, which equally, if in some particular Church they are impeded on their day, are commemorated or impeded, as above. But proper Feasts of some Nation, Diocese, Order, Institute, or particular Church, which in the entire Nation, Diocese, Order, Institute, or particular Church are respectively impeded, are replaced on the nearest following free day, according to the Rubrics.

 

    2. Fixed Double Feasts of the I and II class perpetually impeded are replaced, just as in their proper place, on the first day free from another Double Feast of the I or II Class, from a privileged Vigil, and from other Offices which respectively exclude this sort of Feast. But Doubles of the I or II class assigned to certain Ferias, if perpetually impeded, likewise are replaced just as in the proper place on the next following Feria perpetually free, as above.

 

    3. Sundays, whether greater or lesser, exclude the perpetual assignment of any Feast even a Double of the I Class, excepting the Sunday between the Circumcision of the Lord and the Epiphany, on which is said the Office of the Most Holy Name of Jesus, the Sunday within the Octave of the Epiphany, on which is said the Feast of the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the I Sunday after Pentecost, on which is celebrated the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity, and the Sunday before the Kalends of November, on which is recalled the Feast of O. L. Jesus Christ the King.

 

    4. The Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed excludes not only occurring Feasts but also transferred Feasts of whatever rite.

 

    5. If within an Octave or on the Octave day itself, some Feast of the same person perpetually occurs, all is observed which was said on accidental occurrence in title IV, num. 7; but excepting the Feast of the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, which is ruled by special Rubrics set out in the Proper of the Season.

     6. When Feasts of the universal Church which are celebrated with Octaves, because of a perpetual impediment, are to be replaced on the next following day, the Octave day is not therefore replaced, which ought to be recalled on its day in the universal Church. The same is to be said of an Octave day of a proper Feast of some Nation, Diocese, Order, or Institute, which in some particular Church, are to be replaced on another day. On the contrary, if a proper Feast of some Nation, Diocese, Order, Institute, or particular Church which are celebrated with an Octave, are impeded in the whole Nation, Diocese, Order, or Institute , or in its particular Church respectively, and therefore it is replaced according to the Rubrics, the Octave day is also replaced, which is to be celebrated on the eighth day after the celebrated Feast, as if the same is recalled on its proper day.

[aquinas138]

Thanks, Paul.  

The Feast on July 9 is not universal; there are other dioceses that celebrate the Translation of St. Thomas on July 7.  The ninth is attractive since it is simply replacing a feria rather than reducing the Octave of Sts. Peter and Paul to a commemoration.  That's what I'll do.

I recently ordered a 1943 set from a bookseller in Germany that is in terrific condition - a scuff on Pars Aestiva  and a crack in the spine of Pars Hiemalis, but otherwise in fine condition.  I'll need to supplement it with the Queenship and St. Joseph the Worker.  Anyway, I don't have my new (old!) breviary at hand, so I'm not sure if there will be any proper material for St. Thomas More.  Looking at breviary.net, I can't seem to locate the common collect for Martyrs... do you know what it is?

[PeteC]

Thanks, Paul.  

The Feast on July 9 is not universal; there are other dioceses that celebrate the Translation of St. Thomas on July 7.  The ninth is attractive since it is simply replacing a feria rather than reducing the Octave of Sts. Peter and Paul to a commemoration.  That's what I'll do.

I recently ordered a 1943 set from a bookseller in Germany that is in terrific condition - a scuff on Pars Aestiva  and a crack in the spine of Pars Hiemalis, but otherwise in fine condition.  I'll need to supplement it with the Queenship and St. Joseph the Worker.  Anyway, I don't have my new (old!) breviary at hand, so I'm not sure if there will be any proper material for St. Thomas More.  Looking at breviary.net, I can't seem to locate the common collect for Martyrs... do you know what it is?

The translation of St. Thomas is St. Thomas of Canterbury

Do you want the collect for St. Thomas More?

For St. Thomas More (from his Votive In virtute tua)

Deus, qui beato Thomae Martyri inter saeculi illecebras et carceris mortisque dolores hiliari fortique animo crucem tuam amplecti tribuisti: concede, quaesumus, eius intercessione et exemplo, ut pro fide et iustita alacriter decertantes, ad aeterna gaudia laeti pervenire mereamur. Per Dominum...

For both St. Thomas and St. John Fisher:
Deus, qui beatos Martyres tuos, Iohannem et Thomam, verae fidei et Romanae Ecclesiae principatus propugnatores, inter Anglos suscitasti: eorum meritis ac precibus concede; ut eiusdem fidei professione, unum omnes in Christo efficiamur et simus. Per Dominum......

Unfortunately the breviary Proper I have for England is a bit dated and before these two got their own feast on the 9th (before they were commemorated with the blessed martyrs of E&W on the 4th of May)

[aquinas138]

Thanks.

[Paul]

The Feast on July 9 is not universal; there are other dioceses that celebrate the Translation of St. Thomas on July 7. The ninth is attractive since it is simply replacing a feria rather than reducing the Octave of Sts. Peter and Paul to a commemoration. That's what I'll do.

I know it's not universal, but the Rubrics refer to a patron that's perpetually impeded in all churches of the diocese (for example, a diocese whose patron is St. Anastasia, feast day December 25), as opposed to in only some churches in that diocese (if one particular parish had a local feast on the same day).

I celebrate the feast of St. Maria Goretti on the 9th, figuring that's where the Church would have placed it if the Octave of Ss. Peter and Paul were still around, instead of making her a perpetual commemoration on the Octave day. I also seem to recall one Missal which had her Mass on the 9th (rather than the 6th), but I can't find that one, which I think was in a library I haven't been to in quite a while rather than the ones at my parish.

[AlexV]

I don't have it here (I'm on vacation), but I do have a proper Office for July 9, More and Fisher.  The first nocturn has lessons from the Maccabees, and then the other 2 nocturns are proper, as usual.  Nothing else except the oration; the antiphons and hymns are all from the Common.

Maria Goretti has an attractive proper Office for the same day. 

[aquinas138]

Okay, I was wondering if someone could look this over for me.  I got a 1943 edition of the Breviarium Romanum, so I am switching to the pre-Pius XII simplification rubrics.  Anyway, so the Octave of St. Thomas More will run from July 9-16 inclusive.  Here are the rubrics I've worked out.  Can anyone tell me if I've got this right?  My big question is how to handle the Matins lessons on the 16th, when the Octave Day and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, a Greater Double, occur.  Thanks in advance!

Rubrics for the Octave of St. Thomas More

------
July 8
------
Vespers - Of St. Thomas, commemoration of Sunday, NO com. of St. Elizabeth.

------
July 9
------
Of St. Thomas, Compline of Sunday.

-------
July 10
-------
Lauds - Of Seven Holy Brothers et al., com. of Octave
Vespers - Of Seven Holy Brothers et al., com. of Oct., com. of St. Pius I

-------
July 11
-------
Matins -  Lesson ix of St. Pius (is Lesson ix of the octave omitted, or joined to viii?)
Lauds - Of Oct., com. of St. Pius
Vespers - Of St. John Gualbert, com. of Oct., com. of Sts. Nabor and Felix

-------
July 12
-------
Lauds - Of St. John Gualbert, com. of Oct.
Vespers - Of St. John Gualbert, com. of St. Anacletus, com. of Oct.

-------
July 13
-------
Lauds - Of St. Anacletus, com. of Oct.
Vespers - Of St. Bonaventure, com. of St. Anacletus, com. of Oct.

-------
July 14
-------
Lauds - Of St. Bonaventure, com. of Oct.
Vespers - Of Sunday, com. of St. Bonaventure, com. of St. Henry, com. of Oct.

-------
July 15
-------
Lauds - Of Sunday, com. of St. Henry, com. of Oct.
Prime - NO Athanasian Creed
Vespers, - Of Sunday, com. of Octave Day, com. of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, com. of St. Henry (?)

-------
July 16
-------
Matins -
Lauds - Of Octave Day, com. of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel
Vespers - Of Octave Day, com. of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, com. of St. Alexius

[Paul]

I don't have it here (I'm on vacation), but I do have a  proper Office for July 9, More and Fisher. The first nocturn has  lessons from the Maccabees, and then the other 2 nocturns are proper,  as usual. Nothing else except the oration; the antiphons and hymns are  all from the Common.

Maria Goretti has an attractive proper Office for the same day.  

 
  Could you send me St. Maria Goretti's Office? Does she have proper II and III Nocturn Lessons, or from the Common?
 

[Paul]

You got it mostly correct, except for the following:
 
  Note also that if the following day is of the Octave, the Commemoration  is taken from I Vespers, but if the following day is not of the Octave,  then from II Vespers.
 
 

-------
July 11
-------
Matins -  Lesson ix of St. Pius (is Lesson ix of the octave omitted, or joined to viii?)

 
  I think either is permitted; I usually join the Lessons, but omitting  them, unless a proper Rubric directs otherwise, is permitted.

 
 

 -------
July 12
-------
Lauds - Of St. John Gualbert, com. of Oct.
Vespers - Of St. John Gualbert, com. of St. Anacletus, com. of Oct.

 
  Lauds also has a Commemoration of Ss. Nabor and Felix.

 

 -------
July 16
-------
Matins -
Lauds - Of Octave Day, com. of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel
Vespers - Of Octave Day, com. of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, com. of St. Alexius

 
  This is what the table "Si Occurrat Eodem Die" in the front of the  Breviary is for. It says if a Greater Double and Common Octave Day  occur on the same day, then the Office is of the Octave Day, with a  commemoration of the Greater Double, so the Lessons of the I Nocturn  are from the Octave Day, which are ferial. The IX Lesson is of Our Lady  of Mt. Carmel - either the shortened ninth Lesson "Cum sacra  Pentecostes die viri plurimi", or Lessons IV, V, and VI joined as one.